Why Are All of Spotify’s Most-Streamed Artists Men? • Page 5

And don’t ever turn a blind eye. I do suggest leaving Spotify AI off your list of grievances just to lighten the load

 

Okay. So.

First things first: whether you identify as white or not, the voice and approach to these topics implies enough passivity that you just sound privileged - it sounds as though opting out from direct consequences of inequality is usually a choice for you. I'm not saying that it is - I'm saying that's how that reads, because it informs what I'm about to say.

Inequality is bad, sure, but there are far more useful terms to describe it: inequality is oppressive. It's demoralizing. It's dangerous. It's lethal. It's cruel. It's also completely manmade.

Now we get to the part that really bothers me about what you have to say: you say there won't be a solution in this lifetime and then continue to condescend that those insisting we try to do better are throwing temper tantrums. If that statement wasn't supposed to have general implications, it still didn't apply to the post you quoted. That wasn't even close to a temper tantrum, and this thread has had more than a few great examples of what those look like. It'd be interesting to examine why you chose that phrasing in regards to this issue.

At any rate, moving on. Nihilism and apathy when it comes to social activism and change are the primary reason things DON'T change. I'd know - I spend an inordinate amount of time on the internet talking about this stuff. I've been called every name in the book. I've been told I was wasting my time, by folks who talk a lot like you. I believe y'all believe yourselves - but I also know I've changed minds and ultimately, people have told me I've changed their hearts. (For what it's worth, I'd happily scream into the void for hours if it meant even one person got something from it.) It takes time, and it takes someone being ready to listen. I wasn't even always ready to listen. But it's the repeated, futile-seeming effort that makes that difference. People who insist there's no point miss the larger picture and are by far the most frustrating part of the problem. That viewpoint isn't evolved, it's archaic. It's also complicit.

I partially do this because I feel compelled to help others as a result of what I've experienced - that's true. But selfless? I got into this because these issues impact my life every single day. This isn't about getting cookies. For some it might be, and it's true that I try to help groups that are subjugated in ways I'm not... but with those groups, it's my turn to be quiet, listen, learn and amplify as often as not. Even then, it isn't selfless. It's just basic human decency, and I am never going to be satisfied hiding being apathy as an excuse not to continue trying to be better. I've seen and experienced firsthand how lethal that choice can be.

We're not seeing residual evidence of a white supremacist patriarchy - we're still in an active one. To that point, I'll agree. And as far as "shit isn't that bad" - I mean, for some people it is. There's this weird idea that activists and ~SJWs~ spend all their time upset, and some might. But most of us are just loud in the places where we have the spoons to be. We work, we play, we have lives. And as multi-faceted sentient beings, every human I know who is passionate on these subjects spends plenty of time just being people. But on the other side of that coin, I'm a queer Latinx of color who codes and identifies as a woman and I 100% do not have the luxury of being unbothered by these issues. I'm not going to disrespect myself and those who have it worse by pretending caring about improving the world and living my day to day life are mutually exclusive. That is reductive and childish, and again - it's deadly. Things might not be that bad for me every day. But there are people who die every day because of this crap and it IS that bad for them.

Granted, that is a far larger discussion than this algorithm and I'm not saying Spotify is killing people. I'm saying these issues are complex and interwoven and it's impossible to say the real life impact this and similar things might have on folks seeking employment, musicians working their butts off to expand their base, or young people looking to common tools for representation. These things can contribute to financial security, peace of mind, or even mental health. And these conversations are important because without talking about it, we never get to "why" these things happen. Without a why, it's just empty anger and screaming into a void and, as you mentioned, nothing gets better.

Anyway. I'm glad it's not that bad for you. I just hope you don't think improvement happened because folks decided to let it be.

 

I felt brain cells die reading this page of posts, thankfully Anna saved the last few that were walking toward the light.

 

this is literally the most privileged stance to take.

 

lol dude are you crying right now? get it together

 

I’m the mixed race, bastard son of a deadbeat father and an addict mother who grew up in the projects of a shit hole outside of Boston, currently taking two prescription medicines for depression and anxiety. That’s just some DesireToPlease trivia. I am privileged to live in a free country with a loving family.

 

People who lack privilege in any particular arena can still internalize it and be the mouthpiece for it. Women can be misogynists. POC can be white supremacists. The same applies to every disadvantage and its accompanying oppression. You don't have to be the epitome of privilege to take a support a privileged stance. The opposite happens every single day.

Appreciation of the good is crucial on an individual basis. Projecting that as a mandated outlook onto the general population when "free country" is not a universal experience or truth is not.

 

I’m a mouthpiece and I should be angry all the time. Got it.

 

My favorite person is the one who thinks they are a bigger music fan than those who discover music through Spotify...

I can't believe that was a stance someone took on this subject.... no, I can.

 

imagine this being what you took from that post

 

A like isn't good enough. This is a damn good sentence. A+
If you have a blog I'd love to subscribe.

 

That is very literally not what I said. If that is what you choose to carry from this exchange, so be it. I stopped losing sleep over people who only hear what they want to hear a long time ago. Peace to you.

 

Thank you very much, I really appreciate that. I don't, but I'll certainly let you know if that changes.

 

This is still the weirdest and worst thread but Anna is on point as always. Do not let all that knowledge and care go to waste. Please try to engage and challenge yourself to really internalize the many great things she wrote.

 

Sigh.

That this is the outcome of an article looking at the potential for algorithm bias in music recommendations, is quite depressing. I don’t understand why anyone would read this article and need to argue over it like this. The article isn’t saying this should be the only thing you care about, or that you should care about it more than something else, it’s simply an elucidation on a tech problem that not enough people are thinking about. We’re reproducing human errors and biases in our technology. This is a known issue in technology and it intersects nicely with music. Basically, the exact kind of thing I write about on this website all the time. I find this stuff interesting, I write these kinds of algorithms in projects all the time — I literally wrote the entire recommendation engine that powered AbsolutePunk.net for years. And I know I made mistakes in it that this article specifically points out. If I ever write another one, I’ll do it better. This doesn’t mean I’m mad all the time. It doesn’t mean I’m even slightly angry. It means ... I like music and technology. Which, should be, one of the biggest “no fucking shit” statements of all time.

More people should listen, read, and not feel the need to comment about every little thing. And if you’re sitting on your computer thinking you’re going to really stick it to me, or anyone else, by saying we ‘signal virtue,’ just re-think what you’re saying.

 

I can fully appreciate this response. I do apologize for distracting from the point of human error/coding AI. Human error is probable and needs fixing. We can argue about to what degree that is, but the sheer fact that human bias is probable is pretty much irrefutable. I am also sorry to referring to the ol "virtue signaling." It does remind me of such hot topic words like "snowflake","cuck","altrright" etc... But beyond that, there's no need in restating what I said. Regardless, I do appreciate the conversation and I will consider what everyone has said.

 

Thanks for all that you do Jason. I'm sure it's incredibly disheartening to post an article like this and have it generate such desperately defensive counter arguments - it's hard enough to read through such posts, I can't imagine what it must be like on a daily basis to be reviewing them on your own website.

Nonetheless, it's a fascinating subject, and I'm glad it was able to prompt me to think more about the intersection of AI, music and its cultural/consumer impacts, and allow me to read some of the brilliant replies - particularly from Anna.

 

Ok, Jason asked for a thoughtful response.

I know the point of the article was to say that Spotify's playlists are biased against women and favor men, but as I've written before in different contexts I think it's not likely for them to agree to make fundamental changes to their algorithms that the largest masses of people listen to. It's much more likely they'll try to play to both sides by doing something like they did by pulling R Kelly and XXX and then putting them back, as if they were making a socially responsible move by doing both -- as if they took a stand against sexism by removing them, and a stand against racism by putting them back. As was the case with removing R Kelly, XXX, and a few other extreme mysogynists Spotify will above all want to satisfy the artists they stream the most of, artists who have a well-organized cadre of fans, business entities, and lawyers ready to fight fundamental change that's not to their advantage.

I don't think that change is impossible, I just think it requires more than most people -- including most activists -- inside and outside of the music industry want to do. I wrote about just this issue before when As I Lay Dying first came out with tour plans MetalSucks Explains Why They Won’t Support This As I Lay Dying Reunion • Page 2 • forum.chorus.fm) I think it's worthwhile to protest against things like this but it seems that the activist effort disappears as soon as it looks like it's not going to be easy to take R Kelly or XXX out of the default streams or AILD out of the bigger festivals and all-ages shows.

But that's not really being pushed by even activist musicians or writers I see trying to respond to events like the AILD reunion, Spotify's reversal of taking R Kelly and XXX out of the default playlists, etc. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be more than one or only a few ways of responding here, I'm just trying to point out what seems obvious, there is little effort being made after the least resistance or pushback to taking the most extreme artists out of the (main)streams or a few posts on social media or music blogs that sound almost defeatist in tone if you're looking for suggestions for what to do besides support artists who aren't abusers or women/POC/a more diverse playlist.

A good example is Anne's recent article (http://auxcord.fm/redemption-abuse-music-me-too ) which made some good points in its discussion of redemption but while it emphasizes that offenders need to somehow do more to atone / give reparations for their offenses, it doesn't suggest anything that activists could do further if they do come back on terms that have a negative social impact. All of these cases are different, and it is understandable for an abuse survivor to wish that offenders would all go away but I don't think it's ever been a common request in restorative justice to take some offender out of the public role they've maybe played in the past until the've done whatever the victims are asking for. Whether it's restorative justice or the mainstream parole and probation system, it's considered crucial for a incarcerated offender to get a productive job -- the most productive, legitimate (legal) way possible -- including it seems a public role one would play as a musician.

With AILD's Tim Lambresis, he has three adopted children, all of whom are still minors -- I don't know details of the terms of their divorce or separation but he's probably supposed to be paying child support and maybe alimony and a civil settlement as well -- so he has to have a paying job, and if he really thinks he can best do that (or only do that) by being a musician, he may in that sense be doing the most socially responsible thing for the people he victimized most -- his wife and children -- by getting back to making music and performing in public. I don't know how his wife feels about this but if she is strapped financially and they're going to get a lot more of some settlement by him doing so I bet she'd prefer he'd go back to performing rather than take another lower paying job.

I think it's inevitable that artists will try to make comebacks like this, whether it's AILD or Falling in Reverse or Louis CK. I think that's no reason to not call for further action, whether it's to (for example) keep Louis CK off mainstream television (like Saturday Night Live) or AILD or Falling in Reverse out of all-ages shows and larger festivals. And if they are going to try to make a comeback, couldn't there be organized calls for them to stay out of the mainstream or positions of authority where they'd have more influence say over kids or the general public? It seems there's no public effort to do that, or to keep after Spotify to get R Kelly and XXX out of mass market / default playlists or change the biggest, most profitable playlist algorithms much at all -- it seems the message is that there isn't anything we can do besides promote women artists, socially responsible artists, "equalizers" and niche playlists few people will use.

That seems to say that consumer choice is a such a powerful force that's it's the best or most effective way we have to change the mainstream and I don't think that's enough. It seems like we're playing down action and playing up consumer choice as the only thing we can count on -- and how much does it really change things if women artists get a little more play on Spotify or stage time at the biggest, most expensive festivals, and R Kelly, XXX, AILD, etc are free to play as they always have on the same stages and media outlets? I'm not saying it wouldn't be a good thing for women to get more plays on Spotify or slots at major festivals, I'm just trying to show clearly it amounts to little or no change if we don't do more about abusive artists maintaining their hold on the mainstream.

 

You know what, I’ll never win in a clash of words with you; you’re clearly way more articulate, more educated, and more interested. I will tell you, however, that no combination of words in the English language will convince me that this particular article is worth an ounce of my stress, nor should it for anyone else. I’m sorry for any emotional distress my opinions may have caused you or anyone reading. I hope you can find comfort in this primitive state of total equality that we as humans, unfortunately, occupy.

 

This is the weird thing tho, you are very stressed that other people care about this issue. You won't put any effort into thinking about why, or different perspectives, or how this might affect people even if it doesnt affect you, but you are putting a lot of effort into telling those people that they're wrong and need to stop caring. If you spent even a moment reflecting on why that might be you would probably at least get to a point where you don't care so much that people think something matters when you don't.

 

I'm pretty sure I just conceded this argument. Again, I apologize for any emotional distress my opinion may have caused. Take solace in the fact that you'll never be disagreed with or challenged on this site; the owner has seen to that.

Talking to you, Tate, you douche bag. Want to keep the site from tanking and be able to stop begging for membership? Turn it back from a circle jerk to a music site.

 

From the first post, it was always gonna end with the classic “I’m taking my ball and going home” post.

Lol. Piss off, ghost.

 

Alright bruh if you don’t want to engage with anything to challenge your view and are just gonna hurl insults and whine, maybe go find a safe space and stick to that.

 

Scottie u gotta change ur icon it's indistinguishable from Jason's when skimming on mobile

 

Ahh, yes, we have hit the period where I get called a douche bag for posting news articles on my website by the self proclaimed “chill out nothing matters” guy.

Very cool.