Logan (James Mangold, March 3 2017) Movie

Discussion in 'Entertainment Forum' started by Tim, Oct 5, 2016.

  1. Tim Oct 5, 2016
    (Last edited: Mar 6, 2017)
    Tim

    Everything lives. Prestigious

    The third Wolverine solo film, Logan, is scheduled for release on March 3, 2017.

    The film is directed by James Mangold (The Wolverine; 3:10 to Yuma) and stars Hugh Jackman in what is supposed to be his last time in the role. Patrick Stewart will be back as Charles Xavier. Additionally, Boyd Holbrook, Richard E. Grant, Stephen Merchant, Eriq La Salle, Elise Neal and Elizabeth Rodriguez have been cast in unspecified roles. The film will be rated R.

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    Logan is the Title for the Third Wolverine Movie


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    Did you see Logan? Did it leave you craving more? If so, these five accessible comic book recommendations are just what you need! You can of course find similar Wolverine lists all over the web, but this one was specially by some in the Chorus comic book thread to be both accessible to new comic book readersand directly tied to what you see of the character in the film.

    If you're interested in more recommendations, or if you just want a place to talk about your favorite comics, come check out the comic book thread! The thread will be making these posts for future comic book films, too, and you're invited to join us!

    Wolverine: Weapon X
    Writer/Artist: Barry Windsor-Smith
    Buy from Amazon.

    This storyline, originally printed in bite-sized chunks in Marvel Comics Presents #72-84, covers the origin of Wolverine, a.k.a. Weapon X. Barry Windsor-Smith crafts a story that makes you scared of Weapon X and scared for him all at once. Weapon X probably isn't the character you'll end up disliking in this. The run is from the early 90s, and you instantly get that feel when you read it. It has hints of a slasher film sprinkled all throughout. It's a well-written run and it's a must read if you want to understand the origin of Wolverine. @Deanna

    Wolverine by Greg Rucka
    Writer: Greg Rucka
    Artists: Darick Robertson, Leo Fernandez
    Buy from Amazon.

    Greg Rucka's Wolverine is very unlike the classic Wolverine image we're use too, more similar in tone to The Punisher than the X-men's superhero team ups. There's even a joke referencing how out of place the yellow suit would look on this particular version of Wolverine, similar to what we've seen in the trailer for Logan. The flagship story in this collection is the first arc, where we see Logan once again tethered to tragedy as he works through the complicated dichotomy of the “mean man” he presents to the world, and his need to protect a surrogate daughter. @Vivatoto

    X-23: Innocence Lost/Target X
    Writers: Craig Kyle, Christopher Yost
    Artists: Billy Tan, Mike Choi
    Buy from InStockTrades or Amazon.

    These two miniseries work together as one story to tell X-23's origin. Meant to be a clone of Wolverine, she also grows up tortured and groomed to be a killing machine, raised in secret by her surrogate mother. She keeps her humanity and tries to live a normal life after escaping The Facility. However, the demons of her past continue to haunt her and her new family. Some scenes are hard to read because of the trauma and pain she goes through in the beginning, but the excellent art by Choi and Tan, and emotional writing by Yost and Kyle, make up for it. If you want to learn more about Laura after seeing Logan, this is the best place to start. @xapplexpiex

    Wolverine: Old Man Logan
    Writer: Mark Millar
    Artist: Steve McNiven
    Buy from InStockTrades or Amazon.

    Years after an event that wipes out basically all of the Earth's heroes, villains rule the world while an older Wolverine lives a simple life on a farm in California. Strapped for cash and owing The Hulk rent money, Wolverine heads on a coast to coast road trip with a blind Hawkeye to save his farm and his family. As ridiculous as the premise of this book can seem, this is Wolverine at his most grounded and tragic. It's a bit of slow burn that builds to an ending that would make Quentin Tarantino blush. If you enjoyed Logan, this is a good comic to pick up as it borrows some of the themes here and is a self-contained story. Also recommended if you like hillbilly mafia Hulks or domesticated Ultrons. @dadbolt

    All-New Wolverine: The Four Sisters
    Writer: Tom Taylor
    Artist: David Lopez
    Buy from Amazon.

    In spite of only featuring Logan briefly via flashback, this story is one of the best distillations of what defines Wolverine: a character created to be a killing machine who just wants to be a human being. In her first adventure as Wolverine, Logan's clone encounters clones of herself made under similar circumstances. Laura goes on the run with these sisters to teach them what she herself learned from Logan: "You're the best there is at what you do, but that doesn't mean you have to do it." Fans of Logan should enjoy seeing where X-23 is now, and they should also appreciate Gabby, a clone closer to Dafne Keen's age. @Tim
     
  2. Davjs

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    Poster looks awesome. Title is sort of weak, but an "old man" in front of it could be awesome. Seeing the villain is Mr. Sinister and Prof X is tagging along (not sure if all that is confirmed or rumors) I don't think they are going very Old Man Logan with this story though....
     
  3. smoke4thecaper

    hold on, let me catch my breath Supporter

    Great poster, excited to finally get an R-rated Wolverine movie
     
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  5. Letterbomb31

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  6. Tim

    Everything lives. Prestigious

    The X-Men franchise has had more misses than hits for me, with both Wolverine films thus far being misses. Plus, I can already see signs that this will end up being less than it could be (as is Fox's running theme, even for their better films).

    And yet, I can't help but be excited for this. Whether it ends up being "good" or not, I think it'll end up having some really cool Wolverine moments and be an interesting take on the character. I just have to start now clearing from my head everything I want and won't get out of the Old Man Logan premise and X-23 on the big screen.
     
    awakeohsleeper likes this.
  7. Letterbomb31 Oct 5, 2016
    (Last edited: Oct 5, 2016)
    Letterbomb31

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    The Wolverine and Days of Future Past are my favourite X-Men movies. It's weird though, because I didn't really like either of them that much when I first saw them, but they've grown on me tremendously since. I know lots of people don't like The Wolverine's third act, and I do agree that it's the weakest part of the movie, but I love everything that comes before it so much that it doesn't bother me.
     
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  8. Davjs

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    I thought The Wolverine had some really cool Wolverine moments even though it was a forgettable movie. The Rated R version of it was pretty cool and actually had him fighting Ninjas and not just running away.
     
  9. Tim

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    The sequence from the funeral through the train, minus the stupid shots of him reacting to his healing factor failing (I HATED that plot so very much), was top-tier Wolverine action. But, what they did to my favorite Wolverine comic's story ruined the whole thing.

    I see that his healing factor will be weaker here, too, which is lame, but I can except that better for a story about what might be the end of his life than I could in the crap pile that was The Wolverine.
     
  10. Letterbomb31

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    Why do you hate that part of the plot so much?
     
  11. Davjs

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    Agreed. I also liked the bear fight and seeing him heal after the nuke in the beginning. Pretty much the first half of the film I really liked and I think after the train scene (I've only seen it once) it started to fall off to the point where I was pretty much checked out by the ending fight. Poor Silver Samurai....
     
  12. PearlWisdom

    Pineapple goes on pizza

    I am very excited for this. When my siblings and i would pretend to be X-men as kids, I was always Wolverine.
     
  13. Tim

    Everything lives. Prestigious

    'Cause it was a garbage plot that had a gross misunderstanding of the character Wolverine and why the comic book story works. It was like Mangold saw the story, thought, "Wolverine in Japan is like so totally cool, but how can someone like a character who can't die!?" and then got so lost in the idea of making him physically weaker that he forgot to go back and adapt the original premise.

    In the Claremont/Miller miniseries, they hadn't hyped up Logan's powers enough yet to make him immortal, so there was technically a danger to his life, but considering he was the only mutant in the story, not much. His weakness and struggle, 'cause PHYSICAL WEAKNESS AND STRUGGLE ISN'T THE ONLY KIND, was that, while he could easily heal his body and murder every ninja in his path, he couldn't use that to get to the love of his life, who was stuck in the obligation of an abusive marriage and a deception for what kind of man Logan was. That kind of weakness in spite of physical power (but with plenty of cool fight sequences sprinkled throughout) is a good story. Heck, it's the best Wolverine story.

    Instead, we got some lame story about an old man with a mechanical suit stealing Wolverine's healing factor.
     
  14. Letterbomb31 Oct 5, 2016
    (Last edited: Oct 5, 2016)
    Letterbomb31

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    I get what you're saying. I've never read the original comic so I guess I have nothing to compare it to. It does sound like an interesting story from what you've described. I disagree with you in the sense that I actually enjoyed that they made his healing factor weaker, for me it added tension to the movie and enhanced the action scenes which would have otherwise just been more of the same.

    I think it's a little reductive to say the movie is just a "lame story about an old man with a mechanical suit stealing Wolverine's healing factor". I'd say it's actually much more about Wolverine finding himself and regaining his sense of purpose after the tragic events of X-Men 3. That's his main battle throughout the movie, and it isn't a physical one.
     
    Petit nain des Îles likes this.
  15. Eric Wilson

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    Awesome poster and title.
     
  16. Tim

    Everything lives. Prestigious

    I just think it's so very stupid the way that people think physical vulnerability is necessary for interesting storytelling. I get similarly annoyed when people claim that Superman's powers make him boring, or that Batman being a normal person makes him exciting (even though he's a "normal person" with near unlimited funds, great physical prowess, and a brilliant mind that allegedly let him beat literally anyone with enough planning). Like, no, lol, that's not what makes Batman interesting. Good storytelling does that. Death doesn't have to be on the table for a character to be able to hurt or lose (and let's be real, death is rarely on the table anyways).

    In the comic, Wolverine's fights have meaning and tension for reasons beyond the fear of being physically bested. I'm not in that weird camp of people who expects movies to be straight adaptations of specific comic book stories, but to really get to the heart of the story, which is more than "Canadian with claws fights ninja in Japan 'cause dude Japan," the same should have been true. Romance should have been the heart, not an awkward afterthought.

    As for Wolverine finding his purpose, I guess that's kinda true, almost? It's touched on sloppily but doesn't directly relate to the stolen healing factor plot. It tries to connect them by saying Logan is ready to die, but with the tampering happening in his sleep, he never actually acts like he wants to die. If anything, that angle makes the change even more frustrating, since the aftermath of X-Men 3 would have lent itself to the Claremont/Miller story more so than this dumb healing factor one.
     
  17. Tim

    Everything lives. Prestigious

    It's been so long since I talked about Wolverine that I forgot I have almost as many strong feelings about him as I do Spider-Man, lol.
     
  18. Letterbomb31 Oct 5, 2016
    (Last edited: Oct 5, 2016)
    Letterbomb31

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    Physical vulnerability isn't necessary for interesting storytelling, but I wouldn't dismiss it completely as I do think it can be at the heart of great stories in some circumstances. I remember when I first watched The Dark Knight Rises, and even though it was obvious that Bruce would win by the end of the film, it still hurt to see him get defeated so badly by Bane. I can remember actually wincing when watching that initial fight scene between them, ha. Similarly, when I read issue #700 of The Amazing Spider-Man, and saw Peter Parker (in Dock Ock's body) get killed by Doc Ock (in Peter's body), my jaw hit the floor. Physical vulnerability can definitely be a very exciting plot device to up the stakes in particular stories imo. Of course, that doesn't mean I think it's necessary for every story. It certainly isn't.

    I totally agree that Wolverine's fights under normal circumstances can still have meaning and tension. You only have to look at Wolverine's fight with Lady Deathstrike in X-Men 2 or even when he has to kill Jean in X-Men 3. It's probably not the best example but the last Wolverine graphic novel I read was Enemy of the State, and I found it interesting enough, even though he is borderline unstoppable throughout. I guess it was a compelling read because of the very real possibility of Wolverine killing one of his superhero friends while under the control of Hydra.

    I don't think Wolverine's arc was "sloppily" handled at all. Wolverine is always portrayed in the movies as a very selfless and heroic individual, so just because he doesn't agree to give his powers to the old man, I wouldn't say that means he doesn't want to die. Maybe I'm looking into it too much, but I thought the bear at the start of the movie that needs to be put out of its misery was a reflection of Logan. The movie doesn't explicitly show that he feels suicidal or anything, but I do think the audience is meant to recognise that he's at an all time low. When he eventually gets his mojo back during the scene where he kills the old man's son, and exclaims that he's "the Wolverine", I was so excited. It sounds lame when I write it down like that but as someone who has loved Wolverine since the 90s X-Men cartoon, it was undeniably awesome to watch him return in such a striking manner.
     
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  19. Letterbomb31 Oct 5, 2016
    (Last edited: Oct 5, 2016)
    Letterbomb31

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    Another instance of physical vulnerability that I love happens during The Amazing Spider-man, when Spidey gets shot in the leg towards the end of the movie. Even though he's injured, he pulls himself together to save the city. That kind of heroic selflessness - choosing to do the right thing no matter the circumstances - is what the character is all about imo. The visual of Spidey physically struggling combined together with the incredible score makes for an awesome scene. Possibly my favourite scene in any superhero film in fact, definitely top 5.

     
  20. Tim

    Everything lives. Prestigious

    @Letterbomb31, I don't at all disagree that physical vulnerability CAN create tension. The example you gave from TDKR is certainly a great one (in spite of the movie itself not being great, but that's another whole highly polarizing debate, lol). My argument is that it doesn't HAVE to. The Wolverine didn't have to. It had a far more emotionally gripping storyline just sitting there, but because Mangold didn't understand what to do with a functionally immortal character, he lost sight of the original story before him.

    I almost wonder if you were snuck a different movie disguised as The Wolverine, lol. That's how foreign your excitement over that "I'm the Wolverine" scene is to me. If that moment meant something to you, awesome, but I thought it, the lead-up, and the aftermath were terrible. Outside of Wolverine protecting Mariko at the funeral and the train, which was the closest the movie got to remembering what it should have been, I never felt emotionally engaged by any of the action or narrative. Logan was world-weary at the beginning, but that was forgotten by the time he made it to Japan. He and Mariko started to form an emotional connection, but it never went beyond surface level. Yukio was randomly given a mutant power so we could be warned of his death, but that angle felt like a nuisance that I eagerly awaited to end (much like the healing factor malfunctioning itself). Then, when we finally get dragged past all that nonsense into the final act, that act ended up being an adamantium mechanical suit that cut off Wolverine's claws to, again, sap his powers out of them.

    I dunno. It's not a crime for you to like the film. People can like whatever they want. But, the more I think about the film, the more I get angry at it all over again! It felt like a Wolverine story told by someone who doesn't really appreciate what makes Wolverine special, just like Snyder's recent Superman films feel like someone who doesn't appreciate Superman. All of this just makes me more concerned about this upcoming film, though at least it's seemingly about a future Logan at the end of his life, which is a premise that could work fine with Mangold's depowering obsession.
     
    Petit nain des Îles likes this.
  21. Davjs

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    Hey now, Snyder made the best superman movie we have currently.
     
  22. Letterbomb31 Oct 6, 2016
    (Last edited: Oct 6, 2016)
    Letterbomb31

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    @Tim We agree on this point - that physical vulnerability can create tension but it definitely isn't essential for every superhero story. I think where we disagree is on how effectively The Wolverine uses that vulnerability as a mechanism to enhance the plot. I definitely want to check out the original comic now, as despite my enjoyment of the movie, I've never actually read the story it's adapted from. I hope it doesn't ruin the movie for me!

    The movie has 69% on Rotten Tomatoes (from both the critics and users) and if you look across the board at other film review aggregators, users on average tend to rate it somewhere between 60 and 70%. Obviously it's just a snapshot but it does indicate that most people tend to at least like the movie, even if they don't love it. I'm not alone in enjoying the movie. In regards to the relationship between Wolverine and Mariko, I actually think it develops really well and the last scene between them is earned. I'm not saying it's the greatest love story of all time or anything lol, but it works well in the context of the movie. It doesn't feel forced like the romantic subplots in many other superhero movies (for example, the kiss between Captain America and Sharon Carter in Civil War).

    I remember being shocked at the time but yep, Wolverine having his adamantium claws taken from him was completely unnecessary in the long run. If I remember correctly he has his adamantium claws back again anyway during the future scenes of X-Men: Days of Future Past. I'm assuming that Logan takes place decades after the reset timeline we saw at the end of DOFP? Idk, the continuity is so messed up in the X-Men movies I kind of just don't care about them being consistent with it anymore lol. The poster suggests he'll have his adamantium claws once again which makes the scene at the end of The Wolverine even more meaningless I guess. There weren't any consequences as a result of him losing his adamantium claws.

    Snyder's version of Superman is definitely more problematic than Hugh Jackman's portrayal of Wolverine imo. He doesn't imbue enough hope or optimism into Superman and it's hopefully (no pun intended) something that will be improved upon in future DC movies (and this is coming from someone who enjoys MoS and BvS). Hugh Jackman's Wolverine has never been 100% comic accurate, so I definitely didn't expect that to change going into The Wolverine. I have a bad feeling you're not going to like the upcoming movie very much, haha.
     
    Petit nain des Îles likes this.
  23. Tim

    Everything lives. Prestigious

    @Letterbomb31, if you like 80s Marvel comics, you should definitely check it out. I hope I didn't make it out to be a masterpiece or anything, lol, but it is my favorite Wolverine story.

    I think that what people liked about the film had more to do with the tone than the narrative decisions, and I think that tone would have been even better realized if the fundamental story hadn't been changed so much. A more, for lack of a better term, faithful adaptation would have even better embraced grounded action and physicality, even with the healing, and would have eschewed the third act that even fans tends to criticize, as well as the tinge of what made the third act bad sprinkled throughout the first two acts. (And as for the Civil War example, yeah, that kiss was more forced, lol, but that's not saying much.)

    I'm not even gonna pretend to make sense out of Fox's garbage continuity... lol. I still advocate a soft reboot of the X-Men franchise, starting with Deadpool, Legion, New Mutants, and (if it comes together) Gambit. Let Logan be the end of this convoluted mess! I'm sure they won't, but with Hugh Jackman stepping down, Apocalypse not doing so well, and a lot of spinoff franchises further along than the next "X-Men" film, now's the best time to do so.

    I've got no complaints with Jackman's Wolverine. He's the best casting Fox has ever had! I'm more so going by what I see from James Mangold. I'd agree that Snyder's lack of Superman understanding/appreciation is greater than Mangold's, which is why I'm still really interested in this film, but I do fear that Mangold still isn't the best person for the franchise. At least this isn't pretending to adapt a specific story and is chasing its own weird thing enough to at least work as a neat elseworlds-esque story... Must force optimism... #OneLastTime...
     
  24. Tim

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    Xavier looks like he's about to die. I'm still not sure why he needs to be in this film, but maybe they'll do something cool with him? I dunno.
     
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  25. Davjs

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    I love their relationship in the movies, so I'm sure it'll be awesome.
     
  26. Tim

    Everything lives. Prestigious

    Davjs and ghostedaway like this.