Accountability in Music • Page 270

People talking is a way bigger problem than anything involving a phone IMO. It just is simple courtesy.

 

I’ve had so many sets ruined by talkers and only a few from phones. The worst is when whoever is doing it is just far enough away that you can’t speak to them personally without having to yell and also be disruptive so you just have to suffer.

Also I’m really not ok with the having to put your phone in a bag thing, both for the safety reasons as have been mentioned and the comfort/utility as someone with anxiety who often goes to shows alone and uses it tons between sets. I’ve been to so many no photos shows where security just enforced the rule when they saw it, and I’m perfectly fine with that. And yeah, destroying someone’s property just because they annoyed you is super gross and should not be celebrated in any way.

 

The Better Oblivion Community Center show I went to was the absolute worst in terms of people talking. Had to walk far away from where I was standing several times due to a lot of people just having full blown conversations as if they were sitting by themselves at a bar or something.

 

I've been to concerts in the past where people have been talking to the point that it was extremely disruptive, but I've always had good luck with just asking them to stop. That has worked for me every time except once. In that case, I asked several times and when they kept talking loudly I very loudly shouted "HEY! YOU IN THE BLUE SHIRT! STOP TALKING WE CAN'T HEAR THE MUSIC!!!!" and they stopped talking right away and were embarrassed and eventually moved away.

It is incredibly rude and disrespectful to the people who have come to the show and who are trying to hear the music, and it is also incredibly rude and disrespectful to the people who are performing not that far away in most cases and who are affected by people in the crowd being rude assholes and just talking as if you weren't even there.

Cell phones are a whole different beast. I do not think it is fair to ask everyone to lock away / check their phones at the door. As many people have pointed out, a lot of people come to shows alone and in many cases someone's cell phone is their link to safety, the people they know and trust, and the outside world. I think it's fair for artists to ask for there to be no taping or pictures taken on phones if they feel so inclined. It is sort of then on the individual as to how they will behave, but it could also be on security if the venue asks for there to be no recording or pictures with cell phones as well.

I absolutely do not think it is in any situation okay for the artist to aggressively take and throw or smash or otherwise harm a person's cell phone or camera or any property for that matter. Better to me would be to completely stop the show entirely and either directly yet nicely ask them to stop, or call them out and embarrass them and tell them to stop.

The cell phone thing is a society-wide issue though and not just something that affects concerts.

 

Bill Walton is known to tell talkers at dead shows that "There are 21 hours a day when the Grateful Dead aren't playing, could you talk then please"

 

TIL Bill Walton is a Dead fan.

 

Going into the front row/crowd in general to knock someone’s phone out of their hands is pretty lame. If you get invited (or not) on stage and are being rude and/or invasive about it, shit happens I guess

 

Also I’m gonna start listening to the Grateful Dead

 

come thru

 

As cool as it would be to see Bill Walton at a concert... I definitely would not want to stand behind Bill Walton at a concert.

 

Last year I saw Thom Yorke and halfway through Suspirium (the final song) he stopped and said something like “if you have to talk fuck off outside”

That’s the only show of the tour where he didn’t meet fans after :(

 

It was so bad during that show I wanted to punch everyone

 

Hey, all. Another "how do we handle this?" question. Sorry for leaning on this community for advice. I'm not sure how to handle this whole thing and I don't feel comfortable asking my friends who are themselves victims or are close friends with victims of assault.

--

tl;dr: a person who privately (but not publicly) admitted to sexual assault disappeared from their town, popped up in my town, and now works at a thrift store who donates profits to domestic violence and sexual assault survivors. Do I tell them who he is or is he trying to repair the damage he caused? Should I leave it all alone?

--

The more information version:

A guy I used to know was accused of sexual assault. His band and everyone else in the scene immediately booted him and he disappeared without every saying anything publicly about it. Some other people then came out and said he had been inappropriate and creepy and they were glad he wasn't going to be around them or in the scene anymore.

I live in a different town than he did. After he was kicked out of the scene in his city, he moved to my town. He reached out to me. His message was a long thing that could be summarized as "I fucked up...it was a few years ago...I'm moving near you to live with my grandmother...I'm going to go to therapy and get better...I could use a friend right now."

I reached out to a close friend of mine who is a sexual assault survivor and at the time a very public advocate for victims of sexual assault. They thought his message sounded like an assaulter's plea for someone to lend them credibility and urged me not to fall for his manipulative behavior. This person is no longer a person I can really reach out to (they distanced themselves from everyone who knows their ex after a relationship ended)

A year-ish has passed since all of this stuff happened.

I ran into him the other day at a thrift store who donates their profits to domestic violence shelters and to sexual assault survivors. He was working/volunteering (I have no idea if he's being paid or not) there. He avoided me and seemed really shameful but we exchanged a quick greeting and he went back to working.

I had two thoughts:

1) Does this thrift store know this person was accused of (and privately admitted to) sexual assault? Do I tell them?
2) Is he actually doing the work to get better and is he really ashamed, remorseful, repentant, and working to repair damage in whatever way he can? Is this a common way for assaulters start to try to make up for their actions?

I want to support this person if they've turned themselves around and is really, truthfully trying to do better and be better... but I also feel super uncomfortable with the idea of a person who assaulted someone being in close proximity to people who help (and perhaps themselves are) survivors.

Any thoughts?

Thank you for any insight or advice you can lend.

 

I agree completely, just posting it here because it technically does fall under accountability. Phoebe isn’t at fault here and shouldn’t be.

 

Phoebe has nothing to do with the Foxygen situation. I think Sam France definitely is an abusive scumbag who shouldn't have a label contract or career but Phoebe doesn't deserve heat from the person he abused just because she's on the same label, who are apparently 'sexist' for reasons. Jesus fucking Christ.

 

A great trick that patriarchal society has pulled is to make us fight each other instead of the actual oppressors. It’s really such a shame.

 

EDIT: Content warning - NSFW

These guys aren’t super discussed on here, but they’re HUGE in the broader “scene” right now... and their singer is a scumbag.

 

Oh yeah I heard about this last night but didn't know the details until now. Throw the whole damn man away.

 

reddotrecording, what you say in this post of your knowledge of this person's self-admitted sexual assault history is (from the tl;dr: "A guy I used to know was accused of sexual assault. His band and everyone else in the scene immediately booted him and he disappeared without every saying anything publicly about it. Some other people then came out and said he had been inappropriate and creepy and they were glad he wasn't going to be around them or in the scene anymore." The only elaboration on exactly what he admitted to in the longer read is "I fucked up" So it sounds like the guy may have been really creepy, and I'll suppose did commit a sexual assault, but I can't tell from what you wrote just how much of a threat he may have ever been or may be now.

The main concern you say you have is that he works for "a thrift store who donates their profits to domestic violence shelters and to sexual assault survivors." You ask "Do I tell them" and, you're wondering appropriately, "Is he actually doing the work to get better and is he really ashamed, remorseful, repentant, and working to repair damage in whatever way he can?" and you add "Is this a common way for assaulters start to try to make up for their actions?"

First off, yes, you can report this, but I think unless you think there are people in imminent danger of this guy victimizing them, especially if the thrift store is frequented by teens or people who are especially vulnerable (halfway house/substance abuse/mental health/poverty/disability/etc) or if hes in some possible position of authority there I don't think you should feel obligated to report him to the store management directly as your first action, because without knowing more about the agency and his role there, his job and other things in his background your story likely given anonymously may likely not do anything, any more than if he was bagging groceries or sweeping some store's floor.

I don't know how significant it is that this is a thrift store that donates some profits to domestic violence groups -- there are thrift stores run by domestic violence groups, which may accept anything from clothing and household items to junk cars, even the United Way overall and non-domestic violence groups may have some affiliation with businesses that do that.

He may just be working for a Goodwill or Salvation Army store, for all I know, and yes, he may be there as some part of his rehab or probation or parole that you don't know about, and especially if you aren't close with him as a friend anymore you probably won't want to ask him about. What you have to say about his past is more important if he's in a position of authority and contact with especially vulnerable people. If he's in some position of authority there like as a manager, counselor (licensed or not), or a support group team leader I'd be more concerned than if he's just a sales clerk, and also if the agency is frequented by teens or vulnerable populations I'd be more concerned than if it was a more generic thrift store clientele.

If he doesn't have a verifiable history of criminal behavior or conduct (no arrests, much less convictions) and he's not working or in direct contact with teens or especially vulnerable people and you try to tell the management of the business your story through some anonymous contact from you then they may likely not take any action at all, in part because they won't be able to verify your report through the normal means an employer does background checks.

If his job involves work with people who are especially vulnerable the management should and probably does take greater care in selecting who they hire even if it's for a thrift store. If you know that's the case and you feel obligated to do it'd be more relevant for you to share your concerns directly with management, but I'd still suggest first sharing what you know with other local authorities and getting their advice on what more to do.

Also, if he's in a position of real authority like a counselor, whether professionally licensed or not like the team leaders you may find in a support group, there will likely be state hotlines you could also call to discuss and report concerns about professional conduct or agency management (Professional licensure in the United States - Wikipedia), but without more information I don't want to ask you for I can't tell you what agency or who to call about that.

I think you should call the local police (their regular phone, not 911) and ask to speak with whatever department works with or serves as advocates for sexual violence victims and tell them about your concern and what you know about his. Focus your attention on trying to get help from them first, because the more information you have that he has acted out violently or abusively in the past, the more the information may help with a current investigation that may be going on which you would have no way of knowing about, or with a previous investigation which may be now closed or considered "cold." Even if the statute of limitations has passed for whatever crime he may have admitted to you, there may be others that still could be actionable that your information could help assist with investigating. They may also know something about the thrift store you are talking about and give you some idea of if he may be in contact or potentially in some position of authority which would make the information you have especially of interest to the store's management, and give you suggestions on how you might share your concerns with them. If it's relevant to call some sort of state department of professional regulation for concerns about professional licensure or agency management, they'd be able to tell you how to do that.

You could also call RAINN (1-800-656-4673) which can connect you with a local domestic abuse survivor service provider that you could share your concerns with. They might know know about the thrift store you are talking about at least as a local agency or tell you how to get more information about them so you can better make your own judgement call on how much of a risk he may be to vulnerable people, what position of authority or access he may be in with his job, and what you can do with what you know.

A local domestic abuse group could listen to your story of how this guy has a history of abuse and give you feedback on how much of a risk he might be to others and listen to details you could give him about his current job and give you better suggestions than I could. If it's relevant to call some sort of state department of professional regulation, a domestic violence advocacy group would know how you could do that as well.

I think between going to and possibly going back and forth between those two agencies, the local police and local domestic abuse group(s) you'll get the best advice on how to pursue your concerns. You certainly could then go to the store's management with your story directly, but if you didn't at least local agencies with law enforcement and social services would know of your concerns and they might be able to make use of the information you shared with them.

Finally, you asked "Is this a common way for assaulters start to try to make up for their actions?" Yes, but without more information which I'm not going to ask you for (I don't want to ask you to personally identify this guy in your post here or the store he works for, etc) I don't know if he's maybe actively in some program that relates to his past dysfunctional, abusive, and possibly criminal behavior which maybe even knows about the incident you are aware of, or if he's trying to just hold down a job and maybe do some sort of self-directed attempt at therapy or compensation for his past mistakes and misdeeds.

I don't know how much of one or both of those may be the case. It may be good that he's where he is doing the job he's doing, or it may be really not good at all, or a frustrating mix of both. I can't judge and you probably can't likely know or begin to find out yourself without calling others for help locally first, but even if you don't find out the answers to your questions you should still share the information have with local authorities so it may help others. My main concern would be if he's in some position of authority with especially vulnerable populations, and the local police and domestic violence advocates would be the best source of information and guidance on what you should do with what you know and your concerns.

 

FYI those pictures load up with tweet, dont know if that can be hidden behind a spoiler tag, or just add a warning or something?

 

Can't hide it behind a spoiler unfortunately... I added a content warning FWIW

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to give me a reply.

Unfortunately, all the information I know other than his name and where he's working is in that long writeup. I don't know of any actual criminal charges but I imagine I'd have heard something if it would have happened. I'm close enough with many of the other people in that music scene that I think I'd at least scrolled by it on Twitter.

I'll follow up with the local police and RAINN as my first steps. I hadn't even considered the things you mentioned about other cases.

I want to make sure I'm being as helpful as possible to the people around him if he's still a threat - especially if he has any sort of authority position. And I don't want to create an extra hurdle in his road to repairing wrongs if that's what he's in the middle of - a kick when someone's down and trying to improve themselves doesn't help motivate them to stay on the right path.

Thanks again for the time it took to reply and for the information you gave (and hopefully anyone else who might have similar situations in their communities).