Westworld (HBO) TV Show • Page 26

I think we're supposed to actually care about both Maeve and Dolores. I don't think anyone else is really meant to evoke any strong emotions either way for us. And I don't think we were supposed to feel anything for Armistice either; that scene played more as like a juxtaposition of their Old West sensibilites and the sterile sci-fi surroundings they were in at the time. Like, even in this setting, they're still acting out their roles. Plus it foreshadows Maeve leaving Hector behind at the elevator because it shows that, even though Maeve altered them heavily, they were still at the mercy of their code. Also kind of foreshadows Maeve not being fully in control also, in a way. And as for Clementine, I think we were only supposed to care about her death inasmuch as it affected Maeve. It's almost like she was fridged, in way. Or, rather, "Drippy Old Basemented."

I also think we're supposed to pity Teddy, poor pathetic schmuck that he is.

 

They could have used so much more of Hector. Thought he was great.

 

He was great, and Rodrigo Santoro is very good in the role, but I understand why he wasn't developed any more than he was. I also appreciate them focusing the plot on two female characters, though. Again, with respect to Teddy, in a nice reversal the "heroic cowboy" was the one who needed protection and assistance while the "Damsel" has become the hero.

James Marsden needs a new agent, huh.

 

My general point in saying all that was that it's very hard for me (and maybe it's just me but i get the feeling it's not) to care about a show that puts forth characters that we aren't supposed to care about, by design.

 

I really enjoyed binging the show but now that I think about it, this would have been maddening to watch on a week to week basis. Basically like watching Mr. Robot, only without Mr. Robot's spurts of brilliance.

 

No I totally get that. I just disagree that we aren't supposed to care about all of the characters, is all. I just felt differently about the show, I guess. Nothing wrong with that!

 

Absolutely. Appreciate the conversation. Get a lot more from this than those refusing to discuss it at all.

 

I agree. I'll talk about shows all day when I'm bored at work lol. It's always fun to discuss these kinds of "big ideas" shows. They don't ever work for everyone all the time, and that makes for great discussion beyond simply trading fan theories and trying to play "Guess the Plot Twist."

 

I was getting less and less patient with Westworld, but last week and the finale brought me back in and I liked it quite a bit in the end. I'm not really interested in a lot of the plotholes or lingering questions. I was entertained and am excited to see where it goes.

 

First, thanks for responding in such an in depth way.

Eh, I don't particularly buy this as a valid reason for some of the shoddy writing. Just about every review that I've read about the finale, positive or negative, has criticized the show for spending too much time on the "mystery" and not enough time developing plot or characters. I think throwing criticisms about unclear or poor writing under the rug of "yeah that's what they were going for" is letting the writers off of the hook a bit too easily.

There are certainly rules, I just think they're too easily broken. Can robots kill humans because they gain sentience, or because Ford programmed them to be able to kill humans? That's never clearly answered. If it is the former, then the army of frozen nude people all gained sentience? And were being stored for the perfect time? Idk, I think the show could've done a little bit better explaining that aspect.

But there's cameras all over the park, they would've seen William doing all that he did to Logan and thus his plan wouldn't have any weight. If the son of a wealthy businessman goes crazy in your park, they're going to want to see the tapes.

Unless I misinterpreted, isn't Logan the one with the money and William is marrying into the family? The Logan/William events take place before William has literally any power or money at all. Logan is the one the park would be protecting, not William. He only becomes a financier later.

Actually it's Lin who can see the "plan" programmed for Maeve and says something like "And when you get on the train..." Thus showing that Ford programmed her entire process, right? I just don't get why the show would waste so much time on basically a red herring to distract guards from a bigger event occurring. If that's the case, then literally everything that happened with Maeve is meaningless and just a robot going through the motions programmed into it. That's certainly a twist, but one that completely nullifies any sort of emotional or empathetic connection to Maeve.

I guess the thing that bothered me most about the scene was how the show literally tricked the audience, showed them something that didn't happen. Then showed what supposedly happened. Then showed Ford in Arnold's place. Take it as metaphorical or symbolic or whatever but I found it to be a cheap, clumsy way to trick the audience. In addition, I find it very hard to believe that literally no one knows what exactly happened.

I mean this is just me looking way too much into it, but from a liability standpoint I don't understand how a Host could ever hurt a human, regardless of where they are in the park. Same with Human vs. Human, I feel like the park would have to step in at a certain point.


I think the timeline thing irks me the most. There's no logical reason why they couldn't explain how that worked outside of them not really knowing how to explain it.[/quote][/quote]

 

Overall, I think that the inclusion of Ford as a god and having literally any character able to die and immediately come back lowered every single stake in the show, for me. Sentience could not even truly be a thing, Ford could be programming robots to have these thoughts and kill for him etc. etc.

 

I defended it because I had a little faith that the writers would, at the very least, address major plot points or characters that came into the series. What was the point of Charolette's character? To threaten Ford, to take him out of power? And she needed to also fuck a robot and answer the door nude? What'd that add to literally anything?
Again, why did Elise's character kiss Clem? What'd that add to any other aspect of the show?
Ashley's character is, by all accounts, a human trapped in a terrible predicament in Westworld. Is it simply implied that he dies? How? Were those things sentient?


Remember when Teddy and crew got attacked by Wyatt's cannibal people and they kept firing at them and literally not one went down? Were they humans? What happened to that storyline?
Delores is Wyatt because she killed the people in the town with Teddy, so who are the savages skinning people throughout Westworld?

This is not nitpicking, those are not silly questions. There were major characters and storylines in the show, who we followed over the course of multiple episodes, who were abandoned in favor of a twist that most people got within the first two episodes and a deus ex machina ending that could've literally happened at any other point in the season. We didn't need any buildup or characterization because they're robots and the human beings were not built up at all!

 

Yeah, those are all valid points. Especially the liability thing, although I'd have to imagine that there is a lengthy waiver that must be signed before one enters the park. But even then, that requires heavy suspension of disbelief.

This one I don't know about. It seemed like at the end that he truly was converted over into Arnold's way of thinking. He even sacrificed himself for it the same way Arnold did. I think the sentience is definitely real, at least as far as Dolores is concerned. And also, regarding your earlier point about the decommissioned Hosts shooting Old William, they have shown us that that Hosts can be programmed to harm people in the past (Clementine) but I think that the reason why sentience was necessary was because it removes the possibility that someone could then go in an reverse it. I'm just trying to make sense of it all like everyone else, though haha.

 

In my head, since the "no killing humans" thing was implemented from the very beginning, I assumed that the Clem fight was Clem vs. another host who was working at Delos. That's just me being cynical, I guess. No reason to believe that this was true, but I also don't understand how all of a sudden a human can be killed.

 

She was fighting another Host there, but they had finagled it to make her think the Host was a guest so that when the "guest" was violent with her she reacted violently. Also, as per people posting earlier, Ed Harris is coming back, so technically the decommissioned hosts haven't killed humans yet. (I know full well this is a cop-out lol)

 

Hahha what a dumbass way to explain what had happened (on them, not you). Hypothetically, all of the guards and some of the people working on the Hosts could also be Hosts, right? Like we have no legitimate proof that any human was killed by a Host aside from Arnold/Ford, if that truly happened. Like, the guy who was trying to have sex with male bot last night and got a knife through his chest could've been a robot. Hell, Lin could be a robot and the Maeve bot could have just been telling him he was human to ease the confusion. It could all be a program!

Do you see the can of worms this show opened by giving Ford absolute power? Nothing can be trusted

 

No, hey I'm with you on a lot of things, like Ashley being completely forgotten last night. And I get the problems inherent in creating a narrative environment where we can't trust anything that goes on. I'm just kind of ok with that because I love the world they created, the aesthetics, the concepts, the performances and all the rest. I know it's cliche or lame or whatever but there are just some shows/films where I personally am willing to forgive problems like that when the whole of something really engages me. This is just one of those shows for me.

 

Yeah trust me, I forgave a lot of the silly shit the show tried to pull throughout the season with the hopes that we'd get a solid resolution that sets the tone for future seasons. The fact that this season was predominantly a prologue for something super dope to happen in the future was just a waste of everyone's time.

Like, Young William's storyline is ostensibly over. His entire arc was "Guy who was good actually turns bad" and it's even unclear as to why that was!

Maeve's storyline could be completely moot if she's being controlled by Ford the entire time. Her "growth" is simply a distraction.

Delores and Ford are the two interesting characters, and even their arcs were a bit thin. All of Ford's true feelings and emotions and motives were purposefully hidden under layers of speeches for the entirety of the season. Remember when he wanted to free the robots the entire time but also allowed them to repeatedly be murdered and raped and even forced one to murder his lover? Cmon!!!

 

It's not lame. A show is supposed to be entertaining. I was fully entertained the entire time, despite some flaws/plot holes. There's other shows with better writing that I dislike because they fail to entertain me at all. (GoT being the biggest)

 

See I want the show to give the audience a little credit.
"Hey maybe they'll forget 50% of the interesting characters in our show if we have a dope robot fight scene with a nude woman and show samurais!"

 

That's one thing I can certainly agree with you on. I thought that was handled wrong.

 

Apparently Evan Rachel Wood is a Straylight Run fan. she gets cooler every day.

 

Regardless of figuring out the twist "early", the actual arc was pretty by the books and cliche.

What caused him to turn? Greed for the company? Seeing Delores with another man? He sends Logan off naked on the horse before he returns to town and sees Delores.

He kills all of the men to get Logan's attention pre-any of that because of Delores. Obviously the idea is that he always had it inside of him, but the turn is very awkwardly paced rather than either happening all at once with a turning point or gradually over time. I mean it's what, a couple of days?

 

The score/theme music is the best part of the show. Sorry if this offends.

 

While not perfect, I don't think I've ever been more excited for a 2nd season.