utterp1gwAnk2k20 • Page 88

the delivery guy is gonna show up to your door and just punch you in the face and make you sign for it

 

they don't even ring the doorbell these days

 

While I found Frozen to be quite endearing and enjoyed the movie, it does not rise to the masterpiece status that the Lion King has achieved. Frozen may be a very good movie, but many aspects of the movie are lacking. The Lion King is a visual masterpiece with an emotionally and thematically rich story.


1. Lion King has more complex characters, Frozen tends to be shallow


Shallow characters are not inherently bad, but Frozen tries to create “deep” characters- its general failure to do so is an artistic flaw. A central theme in Frozen is that the superficial appearance of people and situations are rarely the whole story. This goal relies on creating depth of character and motivation. The Lion King is far more successful in this respect.


Pro concedes this point right away by admitting that Scar is a more complex character than Prince Hans.


Mufasa is clearly more complex than the royalty in Frozen. The parents in Frozen don’t have any personality. Mufasa is a fleshed out individual with strengths like honor, courage, and fatherly tenderness and weaknesses like brashness. The parents in Frozen are killed off as a minor plot point, where the death of Mufasa was an emotional milestone for many people. While almost every Disney movie has dead parents, The Lion King is one of the few movies that actually explores the subject with the gravity and respect it deserves. Frozen is just another clichéd data point of dead parents in kid’s movies.


The arguments in my 2) further support this point.


2. The themes, plot, and character motivation of the Lion King are better integrated. Frozen tends to rely on artificial plot point and unneeded deus ex machina.


a) Compare Simba’s decision to return to his kingdom to Elsa’s return to her kingdom.


Elsa flees her kingdom because she is unable to control her powers. She is returned to her kingdom by force and imprisoned. She then escapes from prison, is saved by Anna, and somehow discovers she can control her powers with love. Elsa’s return is characterized by general passivity- events happen to her until things change enough that she can return. The resolution of her problems happen almost haphazardly at the end of the film when she discovers how to control her powers.


Simba attempts to run from his past by fleeing the Pride Lands. Eventually he is confronted by Nala and the news that his kingdom is nearly destroyed. The cliché would be for Simba to realize he must save his kingdom, but instead Simba again turns his back on his responsibility. Simba is then enticed to follow Rafiki and is shown a vision of his father. This critical moment of character development is cinematic poetry layered with meaning. Simba realizes that he can never run from his past because his identity is constituted by the experiences that make up his life. Simba concludes that the only way to be true to himself is to own responsibility for the “murder” of his father, he finds that he must honor his father by living up to his father’s values. This scene is incredibly rich- all the preceding events of the film come develop into a major character development. Simba’s decision to return to Pride Rock is organic yet radical and momentous.


b) Compare how leadership and governance are portrayed.


In Frozen, the princesses lock themselves away, bar the public from entering their castle, and allow economic stagnation (the diplomats frequently describe how Arendelle doesn’t trade with anyone). Yet the public for some reason still love them. In real life the public would be in revolt against their parasitic absentee rulers. To underscore this point, at the end of the film Elsa capriciously proclaims that they will never trade with the countries that wronged her- embracing a vindictive isolationist policy at the expense of her country based on her ONLY interaction with foreign diplomats. Leadership and power are blasé shortcuts to getting the audience to care about the events of the movie.


The villain of Frozen is actually a better leader than the protagonists. Hans actually engages with the populace and organizes the town during the threat of winter. An argument could be made that Hans was justified in seizing power for the good of Arendelle.


In contrast, Lion King actually engages with ideas of responsibility and governance. These themes flow from the arc of the story and feed into character development. Mufasa and Simba are motivated to rule by a sense of justice and love of the balance of the kingdom. Scar wants only power and operates by cronyism. Bad governance by Scar results in mismanagement of resources and suffering in his kingdom, while good governance by Mufasa and Simba results in prosperity.


3. The Lion King is generally aesthetically superior


a) Frozen’s visually climactic scene is both conceptually and visually similar to Dr. Manhattan’s exile to Mars. While I believe that great artists often imitate and reuse ideas, Frozen adds very little to the idea and the execution left much to be desired. The ice castle felt visually flat- the building was unnecessarily planar and failed to explore the possibilities of 3D crystals and sculpture.


http://www.youtube.com...


b) The Lion King has multiple scenes which have become embedded in Western culture’s visual language. The opening scene is visually engaging, using multiple camera angles to explore the moving landscape of animals. The framing of Rafiki holding Simba up at the top of Pride Rock is probably the most recognizable scene in the Disney catalog. The above-mentioned vision of Mufasa as a face in the clouds is similarly iconic and has made appearances on the Simpsons.


c) The Lion King’s dialogue is more memorable and poetic. Mufasa’s explanation of the “circle of life,” Rafiki’s lesson about the pain of the past, and Simba and Pumbaa’s explanation of stars are all striking pieces of dialogue.


Con’s Points are Bogus:


1) a) Pro offers no reason why bad guys who are “likeable” are worse than “real” bad guys or why it is inherently better for antagonists to be revealed in a surprise twist. There are many ways to develop antagonistic characters and none are inherently better or worse- the execution and the how well these artistic choices serve the film are all that are relevant.


b) Scar is a far more believable bad guy than Prince Hans- Scar murdered for political power then successfully deceived everyone. Pro is wrong that everyone could spot Scar as the bad guy from a mile away. The audience knows he is evil, but the characters in the film do not. A central plot point in the Lion King is that NO ONE KNOWS SCAR MURDERED MUFASA.


Prince Hans messed up his plan with a movie villain monologue. He TOLD Ana he wanted her dead then gave her time to escape. This is a classic trope that has been parodied to death as being stupid and unrealistic. A real bad guy would have reassured Ana while allowing her to die. Prince Hans’ reveal was done incredibly poorly.


2) Pro measures the quality of songs by YouTube views. This is prima facie retarded; I guess Pro thinks Justin Bieber’s “Baby “ is the greatest song of all time since it has over 1 billion YouTube views.


It’s dumb to use arbitrary commercial stats to prove a song’s quality, but the Lion King has sold over 10 million copies of its soundtrack. The Broadway musical version is the fourth longest running Broadway musical and won several Tony awards, including “Best Musical.”


The Lion King also steam-rolls Frozen in terms of box office revenue- The Lion King ranks 18, while Frozen is 109 [1].


[1] http://boxofficemojo.com...


3) This is an argument FOR the Lion King


a) Its only weird if you make it weird.


b) Lions have sex, get over it.


c) Don’t act like you didn’t have a crush on Nala when you were 5.


d) The scene teaches kids a valuable lesson about the power of Elton John.


4) Crappy sequels are irrelevant.


This debate isn’t “Frozen is better than the Lion King and its sequels.” The Lion King rears up on its hind legs and roars on its own merit.

 

"The villain of Frozen is actually a better leader than the protagonists. Hans actually engages with the populace and organizes the town during the threat of winter. An argument could be made that Hans was justified in seizing power for the good of Arendelle."

i've actually always agreed that hans wasn't actually bad

 

I'm not even sure what happens in Frozen. People are cold, I suppose.

 

Who would’ve thought a thread called utter pigwank could devolve into such utter pigwankery

 

smh

 

would you rather never eat pasta again or never eat chicken again?

 

shit

 

Never eat pasta sorry that’s easy af

 

maybe for you, Ry

hard for me

 

So I guess this is what I'm doing today:

LOLOL, I sure as hell said no such thing! In fact my entire argument was that the exact opposite is true. Scar is a generic, typical disney villian who's very appearance gives away his entire character. Prince Hans on the other hand is a much more complex character to figure out since his motives and behavior are unpredictable.


"The parents in Frozen don’t have any personality"

Thats kind of because they died within like the first 7 minutes of the movie.....



"While almost every Disney movie has dead parents"

Why is that by the way?



"Frozen is just another clichéd data point of dead parents in kid’s movies."

The Lion King though is riddled with cliche's.... The bad guy is clearly the bad guy, the good guy is clearly the good guy, the first lion Simba meets turns out to be his true love, the lions are the king of the wilderness.... Theres a whole list of cliche's you find in the Lion King that tallied up exceed the number found in Frozen.....



2) themes, plot, and character motivation

"The resolution of [Elsa's] problems happen almost haphazardly at the end of the film when she discovers how to control her powers."

That completely ignores how the other main character in the film, Anna, was completely mistaken not once, but twice about how to resolve her problems, to the point where it nearly killed her both times....



"Simba is then enticed to follow Rafiki and is shown a vision of his father. This critical moment of character development is cinematic poetry layered with meaning"

Lol no it isnt! Simba literally just decides to return to the kingdom because his dad essentially said to him 'hey, get your sh** together'....



"Simba’s decision to return to Pride Rock is organic yet radical and momentous"

It was completely predictable and cliche. If I had a dollar every time someone who wanted to hang out with their friends in life instead of be a responsible adult ended up acting like an adult just because their uptight dad guilt-tripped them into doing so, I could pay off half of the US national debt......




3) Leadership and Governance

"In Frozen, the princesses lock themselves away, bar the public from entering their castle, and allow economic stagnation"

Actually that was their parents' decision..... Elsa and Anna were still not even 12 when those orders were carried out.




"In real life the public would be in revolt against their parasitic absentee rulers."

The parents who made those orders lived for quite a few more years. Then when they did die, rule over the kingdom transferred to the two princesses, one of which was about to become old enough to rule on her own who could quite possibly reverse the decisions of her parents...... Its actually perfectly reasonable for the public to love the two princesses since they were quite literally the symbol of better times coming in the near future.....



"Elsa capriciously proclaims that they will never trade with the countries that wronged her- embracing a vindictive isolationist policy at the expense of her country based on her ONLY interaction with foreign diplomats"

1) It was only 1 country that she severed ties with, your claim that she would never trade with countries that wronged her is completely inaccurate and borderline asinine to claim

2) The diplomat literally sent both of his body guards to try to kill Elsa, she was perfectly within reason to halt trade with a country who's top diplomat tried to assassinate her....



"Mufasa and Simba are motivated to rule by a sense of justice and love of the balance of the kingdom."

Just like Anna and Elsa at the end of the film....

"Scar wants only power and operates by cronyism"

Just like Hans....



3) Aesthetically superior

"Frozen’s visually climactic scene is both conceptually and visually similar to Dr. Manhattan’s exile to Mars"

That was a fantastic scene though!

"The ice castle felt visually flat- the building was unnecessarily planar and failed to explore the possibilities of 3D crystals and sculpture"

Thats just your biased opinion....



"The opening scene is visually engaging"

So is Frozen's.....



"using multiple camera angles to explore the moving landscape of animals"

Frozen does the same thing with the ice harvesters.....



"The Lion King’s dialogue is more memorable and poetic."

opinion....


"Mufasa’s explanation of the “circle of life,” Rafiki’s lesson about the pain of the past, and Simba and Pumbaa’s explanation of stars are all striking pieces of dialogue."

In frozen you also have the power of sisterhood, how to control fear and great power, how you cant simply lock yourself away in isolation to solve all your problems, how the first person you fall in love with might not be the right one.... The list goes on and on.....



5) Other

"Pro offers no reason why bad guys who are likable are worse than “real” bad guys"

Theyre worse because bad guys who are likable underscore the negative qualities of human behavior in a way that make them seem lees harmful characteristics than they really are, which rubs off on an audience. Real bad guys on the other hand dont try to cover up evil just so that an audience's comfort zone doesnt get violated, real bad guys demonstrate that there is evil out there and that its ugly.



"or why it is inherently better for antagonists to be revealed in a surprise twist."

Shock value, duh.



"Scar is a far more believable bad guy than Prince Hans"

Hes just a more cliche bad guy than Prince Hans.....



"A central plot point in the Lion King is that NO ONE KNOWS SCAR MURDERED MUFASA."

And a central plot point in Frozen is that no one knew that Hans was an evil bastard!



"He TOLD Ana he wanted her dead then gave her time to escape."

He left her to die and tried to kill an imprisoned Elsa, the one who represented a much greater threat to his plan at the time....



"Prince Hans’ reveal was done incredibly poorly."

Do you plan on using anything else besides your own opinion for your arguments? Nobody was surprised to see Scar push Mufasa to his death in The Lion King, while a crapload of people were surprised to see that Hans was actually a bad guy



"This is prima facie retarded; I guess Pro thinks Justin Bieber’s “Baby “ is the greatest song of all time since it has over 1 billion YouTube views."

Justin Bieber's song 'Baby' didnt win any awards idiot, 'Let it Go' racked up all kinds of awards for being a good song.



"The Lion King also steam-rolls Frozen in terms of box office revenue- The Lion King ranks 18, while Frozen is 109"

The chart is adjusted for inflation, and even then the Lion King's total comes out to about $700 million, Frozen meanwhile has already topped $1 Billion in box office income (http://en.wikipedia.org...(2013_film)#Box_office ), yet your chart it only gives Frozen $400 million.

So your source is completely flawed.



"Its only weird if you make it weird.

Implying that lions had sex in a childrens film while the song 'can you feel the love tonight' is weird no matter how you look at it



"Don’t act like you didn’t have a crush on Nala when you were 5."

Im not into bestiality, youre thinking of ADreamOfliberty.....


"Crappy sequels are irrelevant."

Oh theyre relevant alright, it shows that the production company behind 'The Lion King' were only interested in cashing out and making a fortune off of it. If the values of the Lion King were actually respected, then the film's legacy would have been preserved and stand the test of time. Instead it was sold down the river with two sequels made just to make money.

 

i would probably go with pasta as well but i'd definitely miss it after like a day

 

Frozen 3 (2024)

 

never eat chicken again

 

You’re what?

But seriously come on chicken. It’s chicken. You can’t not have chicken ever again.

 

Pasta

 

A lot of chicken lovers up in here

 

A man of culture

 

Don’t kinkshame

 

wings and spicy chicken sandwiches made the decision for me, not even trying to consider the healthy options of keeping chicken around lol

 

You do you RyRy. I’ve been known to dabble in kinky things myself ya know.