utterp1gwAnk2k20 • Page 86

Although Simba was portrayed as the clear-cut protagonist in Disney's "The Lion King", and Scar as the antagonist, this viewpoint is made for a Disney-age audience. When examined closer, Scar's actions begin to become not only justifiable, but potentially heroic as well. Meanwhile, Simba and Mufasa become the antagonists against the "Dark Prince".

Ahadi's selection of Mufasa as his successor shows baffling favoritism of strength over intelligence. Scar states in the film, and I look forward to any disagreement, that "as far as brains go, I got the lion's share. But, when it comes to brute strength, I'm afraid I'm at the shallow end of the gene pool." Mufasa's strength as a leader comes in his literal strength. Is this truly the best quality in a leader? Or is intelligence the preferred trait?

The banishment of the hyenas was the other pre-film event that needed to be explained in order to prevent this case. Under Ahadi's, or perhaps a previous king, rule, the entire species of hyenas were banished from the rich and sustaining Pridelands. Why? What could have happened to condemn an entire species to die, albeit indirectly? Mufasa upholds this ruling, which makes him an oppressor of the army that Scar later raises.

In the film, we see Mufasa passing on his wisdom to Simba, which will later be the basis of his rule in the sequel. Because of this dependence on his father's teachings, it can be assumed that Simba would carry on Mufasa's support of the banishment of the hyenas. It can also be assumed, to a degree, that Scar is aware of this dependence as well.

We learn off screen that Scar has discovered that the hyenas, as a species, do not deserve to waste away and eventually die of starvation. He is also aware, as stated in the previous paragraph, that Simba would continue Mufasa's policies in the event of Mufasa's death. So, Scar rallies his allies with the promise that *they would not starve to death*.

Killing Mufasa and the attempt to kill Simba can be seen in one of two primary ways. The first being the one that the film intended, a power-hungry tyrant willing to do anything for the throne. Or, as I believe, it can be seen as a necessary way to prevent the deaths of hundreds, which can be seen in the "Be Prepared" scene, at the price of two deaths.

With Mufasa and Simba gone, Scar brings his army into a land where they can survive. The over hunting that occurs, a minimum of three years later, is a natural process that occurs when there are too many predators for the available to prey to sustain. Some predators die off, and the levels return to a balance. Being that this process is a bit too intense for Disney, it is shown as a way to further show that Scar's coup was a disaster, and that Simba must return to save them all from Scar's tyranny.

Meanwhile, in the Oasis, Simba spends at least three years, based on his visible aging, frolicking through the jungle learning not to worry about anything. Less than ideal training for the heroic king-to-be of the film.

Going back to Scar, I feel the need to reinstate this. He spend at least three years ruling, and the confrontation with Sarabi is the only episode of conflict we see between Scar and the rest of his pride. We can assume, because of this, that Scar's rule was at least successful enough to keep everyone in line for years before serious conflict arose.

When Simba does finally return, he confesses to killing Mufasa. A battle ensues, and Scar admits to killing Mufasa. This would cause reasonable confusion among the other members of the pride. After Scar's death, Simba *instantly* expects everyone present to breathe a sigh of relief, because the true king that's been missing for years and could have still, in their eyes, commited patricidal regicide, was finally ready to assume his responsibilities.

In the sequel, we learn that Simba has banished everyone that did not rapidly accept him, instead of allowing reasonable time to process all that had occurred. This rightfully causes tensions with those banished, and the entire conflict of the sequel was created. By the end, we learn that the vast majority of those banished did, in fact, come to accept Simba as a leader. They were not, however, allowed to return to the rich Pridelands. Their lack of instant transition from king to king granted them death if they were to return to the land of the king they'd come to accept.

To summarize, Scar killed Mufasa and attempted to kill Simba in order to save hundreds of lives. His qualities as a leader are more realistic and generally desirable than those of Mufasa and, arguably, Simba. He was overthrown by the true antagonist of the film, who quickly erased all traces of Scar from the Pridelands through banishing his one time followers.

 

how do you upload a phone video in here

 

you have 24 hours to turn in your account

 

morning

 

what the fuck dude
The A1chemy Index Vol. 5: Dan should not have the ability to change this thread title • Page 531 • forum.chorus.fm

 

I am gonna miss Jeremy Irons as Scar in the new movie though.

 

The A1chemy Index Vol. 5: Dan should not have the ability to change this thread title • Page 531 • forum.chorus.fm
!!!!!

 

scar is just jafar as a lion

 

not this again

 

Observation 1: As my opponent is moving for a change in the status quo of Simba being considered the protagonist, the burden of proof will be on Pro's shoulders.
Observation 2: Since there is no record of pre-film time in The Lion King, all claims about what might have happened before the events in the movie must be backed up by solid logic, not assumptions.

I will itemize my attacks for organizational purposes.

1: Favoritism My opponent stated that Ahadi showed favoritism for strength over intelligence. He quoted Scar saying that he "got the lion's share" of brains, but not as much strength. However, there is no logic behind this claim other than Scar's word. It takes more than just brute strength to rule a kingdom, and Mufasa had managed to keep a very good rule over the Pridelands for his entire life. This fact directly contradicts Scar's anecdotal claim.

2: Banishment of the Hyenas: Now we come to what I think will be one of the bigger points of this debate: the banishment of the hyenas.
2a: Over hunting: I would like to pose a question for my opponent: what is to say that the elephant graveyard was not once as rich as the Pridelands? It is distinctly possible that the king who banished the hyenas did so for what, apparently, my opponent considers a valid reason: sacrificing a few lives to save many. Based on what happens when Scar brings back the hyenas, there are massive amounts of over hunting. My opponent asked what the hyenas could have done to deserve banishment. Perhaps they did exactly what they do when Scar brings them back: ate too much. As the hyenas consumed all of the food in the Pridelands, they not only affect themselves, but the lions, and all other animals, predator and prey on the savannas. By eating all of the food, they are dooming not only themselves, but the lions to starvation. They were most likely banished so that the natural event of predators dying and balancing out the ecosystem that my opponent described could take place.
2b: Scar's Motives: If Scar was, in fact, as intelligent as my opponent claims him to be, then he would have seen the obvious harms of bringing the hyenas back to the Pridelands. Knowing that his actions would most likely mean the downfall of the Pridelands, Scar still continues with his plan, purely to sate his own desire to rule. There is a scene in which Scar is asking Sarabi why the lionesses aren't hunting, and Sarabi says that they don't have enough food to hunt. She poses the ultimatum: leave Pride Rock or starve to death. Stubbornly, with no thought to those that he supposedly staged his coup to save, Scar retains his elitist regime, even at the cost of the entire Pridelands. This shows an amount of greed and selfishness unprecedented by neither Mufasa nor, apparently, Ahadi.
2c: Elitism: By reinstating the hyenas to the Pridelands, and promising them all free food, Scar is establishing a massive elitist class. It is clear from the scene during which Scar sings "Be Prepared" that the hyenas far outnumber the lionesses...and yet Scar still forces them to do all of the hunting. This has obvious detriments. First of all, there is the enormous workload that Scar's actions put on the lionesses. Having to hunt for potentially hundreds of hyenas, plus themselves, and Scar, who, based on his lack of hunger complaints and the amount of bones strewn about his throne room, is not lacking in food. This again brings into question the "heroism" of Scar.

3: Character Arc: My opponent brought up that Simba spent the approximately three years of his exile "frolicking through the jungle learning not to worry about anything". However, looking at this from a critical standpoint, the whole point of that space of time is to show how much Mufasa's death affected him, and how he coped with it. Besides that, it juxtaposes the carefree, happy-go-lucky king that Simba is projected to be in the song "I Just Can't Wait to be King" with the majestic, powerful, and just ruler that he turns out to be.

4: Scar Maintaining Rule: My opponent stated that Scar has maintained his rule over the Pridelands for at least three years, with the confrontation with Sarabi being the only time there is conflict between him and the lionesses. First of all, I would like to point out that, based on the ruling system of the pride, only male lions can rule. So, for all we know, there could have been many conflicts between Scar and the lionesses. However, they could never openly revolt because they could not rule. This idea is reinforced because when Simba, the rightful heir to the throne returns, they do revolt; now they have someone who can rule in Scar's stead.

5: Who Killed Mufasa: My opponent says that because both Simba and Scar confessing to killing Mufasa, and both while under threat from the other, there would be some confusion as to who actually did it from the lionesses' perspective. However, my opponent failed to mention the fact that the lionesses only started fighting after Scar confessed to being the killer. Besides disproving my opponent's point, this shows Simba's superior leadership and honesty.

6: Banishment of Scar's Followers: If the Thirteen Colonies had been defeated by the British when they revolted, then all of the revolutionaries would have been charged with treason and executed. If we look at Simba's banishment that way, you can see that Simba was actually being merciful. He could have killed all of them for treason, and because they posed a threat to the throne. But instead, he only exiled them, resulting in them remaining alive long enough for them to revolt again. The fact that they revolted a second time perfectly illustrates my point that Simba was right in banishing them. If he had let them stay, it would have been that much easier for them to sow dissension among the lions and lionesses, and incite a full-scale rebellion, potentially toppling Simba from his rightful place on the throne.

7: Justification for Murder: There is no justification for murder. Even if Scar did do it to "save hundreds of lives", it is still murder. Lives cannot justly be weighed against other lives. It is not Scar's duty to decide who lives and who dies.

8: Definition of "Protagonist": Even if my judges consider all of my other points to be invalid, the fact remains that morality does not determine the protagonist. Contrary to popular belief, the protagonist is not "the good guy", it is merely the main character. The fact that very little of the movie's story is focused around Scar, and almost all of it is centered around Simba shows that Simba is, in fact, the protagonist. However immoral Simba may have been, he is still the main character.

 

fine, i'll play along

I can already tell that this will indeed be a lively debate, and I look forward to its resolution.

I accept my opponent's first observation, however, I cannot accept his second. The grounds for this rejection include the following information:
- this observation is flawed on a fundamental level, in that there are records, acknowledged as canon by the creators of the film, in existence, which show key events prior to the film
- what my opponent considers "solid logic" may differ from my own, as well as that of our judges. Because of this, neither of us has the right to decide which logic is sound and which is flawed without providing evidence
- logic does not need to be based on definite evidence in order to be considered valid. It can also be based on reasonable assumptions derived from the evidence presented

With this out of the way, I will go about responding to my opponent's claims using a similar method of organization.

1: Favoritism - While I agree with the premise that Mufasa was indeed a reasonably successful leader, my opponent fails to provide any conclusive evidence that this success was a result of anything other than his physical strength. At no point in the film does Mufasa show the ability of his mind during his rule, only intimidation and dominance. Also, my opponent claims that Mufasa held control over the Pridelands for his entire life. This claim is entirely false, as it is unknown when Mufasa took the throne from his father, Ahadi. However, based on how rapidly Nala gave birth to Kiara, it can be deduced that a king bears cubs very soon after assuming the throne. Based on Simba's youth in the beginning of the first film, Mufasa presumably held the throne for, at most, three years, and as little as one. Note that the maximum estimate is the minimal estimate for Scar's time of rule, meaning that Mufasa's successful rule could *possibly* have lasted as long as Scar's. This, although not as a stand-alone piece of information, provides further evidence for Scar's, and his intelligence's, able and successful leadership.

2a: Over hunting - My opponent contradicts his own request in "Observation 2" when he speculates on what the Elephant Graveyard might have been. I ask that he either refrain from making these assumptions in the future, or that he not use my own similar assumptions as a way to degrade the argument that I am making. By my opponent's logic, I could, within the boundaries of his usage, but not within the boundaries which he has set for me, respond to the question I have been asked with, "What's to say that it was?" However, I intend to support that generic response with evidence from the film(s). At no point, in any of the films, is there any indication that the Pridelands were at any point suffering a decline. They are consistently described as rich and sustaining. The territory that the hyenas were banished to was presumably outside the Pridelands, since it was referred to as the hyenas' territory, and they were also said to have been banished. This suggests that they were not merely confined to a certain area which they depleted, but removed from land that could sustain them, leaving the question previously posed. Why?

2b: Scar's Motives - My opponent, although forgivable, continues to base his arguments on the idea that Scar was the power hungry tyrant that the film portrayed him as. He fails to recognize the likelihood that Scar intended to reduce the number of predators in the Pridelands, both lions and hyenas, so that members of all species could survive there, not only the lions that lived under Mufasa's and Ahadi's rule. Scar recognized the possibility of both lions and hyenas surviving at an equal rate, not just a single group.

2c: Elitism - My opponent appears to argue against an elite class, yet he stands by a regime that supported an elite class of lions. The lions under Ahadi, Mufasa, and later, Simba, held a monopoly over the food supply, leaving the "lower class" of hyenas to starve. I must ask my opponent, how is one elite class better than another? Also, there is no evidence in the film stating that the hyenas, also predators, did not hunt. This is an assumption made by my opponent. As to Scar's supply of food, he is the last surviving male of the pride. If he starves, there is no generation to follow. *Of course* he's going to be kept alive by the others, he's their only chance to continue the pride.

3: Character Arc - The years in the jungle to not serve to show the impact of Mufasa's death on Simba, with the exception of the opening scene, the scene under the stars with Timon and Pumbaa, and the scene with Rafiki. The rest shows him learning "no worries" from a meerkat and a pig, and growing physically stronger, yet my opponent makes the case that this made for an ideal leader? I will speak to the "just ruler" remark later in this round.

4: Scar Maintaining Rule - My opponent's case that a male replacement was needed before confronting the king is blatantly disproven by the sequel, in which a pride of lionesses and two male cubs, not yet of age to rule, clearly opposed Simba's rule. They wish to operate under the same ruling system, only a different leader, Zira. The lionesses that made up this revolt came from the same pride as the other lionesses, showing that a revolt was possible.

5: Who Killed Mufasa - The fighters against Scar were members of Mufasa's elite class, so they would obviously fight his killer. There is no evidence that a fight would not have ensued against Simba had Scar not confessed. Also, this case in no way proves Simba's leadership capacity as my opponent states.

6: Banishment of Scar's Followers - My opponent's analogy is flawed. Simba, a male, depended on the lionesses to keep him and the pride alive. Had he killed anyone with ties to Scar, he would only doom himself. The fact that Scar had roughly as many supporters as Simba at the time of their banishment furthers the point that Scar was a successful ruler. Also, being next-in-line for the throne does not make for a "good" king, only a proper one. If a more capable ruler was present, then a revolt becomes more attractive. This proves Simba's partial failure as a leader, as well as Scar's success, in the form of a lasting legacy that his supporters would die for.

7: Justification for Murder - This is an entirely different debate, but I will comment nonetheless. A hero generally is forced to make a sacrifice for the greater good. Saving hundreds of lives is an admirable and possibly heroic cause, even if the means of doing so are considered immoral by some. This was a necessary evil, and Mufasa's death *ended* the elitist class that my opponent argued against earlier. An oppressor to the masses was killed, freeing them. This can be seen when taken out of the tragic context that the film put it in.

8: Definitions - My opponent provided an accurate definition for the word "protagonist". He did not, however, provide all definitions of the word. He conveniently added the definition that supports his case, while leaving out the one that supports mine. Therefore, I feel I must add this for the voters to be aware of.

Protagonist - a leader, proponent, or supporter of a cause
Antagonist - one that contends with or opposes another

By these definitions, my usage in the question and throughout my argument remain valid

I ask the voters and my opponent to look outside of what the films are showing you about right and wrong. Then, and only then, you may see that you have been mislead by popular opinion, and through closer analysis, the true hero of this story will become clear.

 

I can already tell that this will indeed be a lively debate

 

Oho, boy. This is definitely going to be a debate of epic proportions. Good opponents always make a good debate, just like good villains make a good movie.


I thank my opponent for the acceptation of my first observation. (For those voters who don't know, an observation is something that can be used to clarify the round and provide more specific guidelines than those already in place. They are debatable.)


Observation Rebuttal: My opponent contradicts himself in his 2nd and 3rd points against my observation. In his 2nd point, he says that we cannot define "solid logic", and as such, we must provide evidence for our claims. Then, in his 3rd point, he says that logic does not need to be based off of evidence to be considered valid. This is an obvious contradiction, and as such, both points should be considered invalid. In his first point against my observation, he says that there are records of pre-film history. I would like my opponent to provide me a link with these sources as I cannot find any.


Rebuttal:


1. Favoritism: My opponent agreed with me that Mufasa was a reasonably successful leader, however, I did not show that it was because of anything more than strength. In the first round, my opponent asked, "Mufasa's strength as a leader comes in his literal strength. Is this truly the best quality in a leader? Or is intelligence the preferred trait?" Apparently, strength is the best quality in a leader. Even by my opponent's own admission, Mufasa was a successful leader. If we assume that he isn't intelligent like my opponent claims, then clearly strength is more beneficial. While I am not arguing that leaders should gain their position by strength alone, there is clear evidence that strength is a beneficial trait. My opponent's only piece of evidence for Mufasa not being intelligent is Scar's own opinion, which is anecdotal. Anecdotes are unreliable and highly biased as they are based off of personal experience and not anything else. My opponent also attacked me by saying that Mufasa had only held the throne for a maximum of three years, and this is true...because he was murdered by his jealous younger brother. Lions mature at age 3, live around 14 years, and mate around the ages of 4 to 6. By this information, we can deduce that Mufasa was approximately 9 years old when he became king. Simba was approximately 1 when Mufasa died, so Mufasa was probably 10 to 11. As there is no evidence that Pridelanders were unhappy with Mufasa's rule, if Scar hadn't murdered him, Mufasa's reign would have continued for at least two more years, maybe more, almost twice as long as Scar held it. If that isn't a sign of good leadership, I don't know what is.


2a. Overhunting: My opponent's statement that I contradicted my own observation is completely false. My observation says that we must back up speculations with logic, as I have done. I stated that when the hyenas were introduced to the Pridelands, it ran out of food. Based on this, it is likely that this same phenomenon was already occurring, and the hyenas were banished to prevent it. Pro goes on to say that there is no point at which the Pridelands suffer a decline. Interestingly, this is true...until the hyenas were introduced to it. At that point, there were far too many predators and far too little prey, so they started to run out of food. Simple ecology. Again, the only logical reason why the hyenas were banished is to prevent overhunting. Besides this, my opponent agreed that he has the burden of proof; therefore, as I have presented my logic and refuted his own, he must prove that the hyenas were banished for a reason other than overhunting.


2b. Scar's Motives: My opponent's only rebuttal about Scar's motives is restating basically what this whole debate is about. As my opponent did mount any attack on my logical arguments, i.e. Scar's confrontation with Sarabi, his stubbornness in leaving (essentially sentencing all of the Pridelanders to death). I must also stress the point that when Scar did this, he was starving the very creatures that my opponent claims he was trying to save with his coup. Because my opponent did not attack this point, it must be considered valid and flow through the round.


2c. Elitism: My opponent states that I attack elitism, and then in the same breath support a regime that is heavily elitist. This is not true; I am not attacking elitism itself, but the fact that Scar's elitism put an unbearable strain on the lionesses to hunt, and the prey to survive. With the lions' elitism, they do their own hunting, and make sure that they don't overhunt. Also, there is evidence that the hyenas don't hunt: the hyenas came complaining to Scar that they don't have any food, and Scar, heaving a sigh, says that it is the lionesses' job to do the hunting. None of the hyenas respond to this, indicating that it is, in fact, true. If the hyenas did their own hunting, then why would they come complaining to Scar that the lionesses aren't hunting? Answer: they wouldn't. My opponent continues by saying that the had to keep Scar alive because he didn't have a male heir, and the pride would die. However, in The Lion King 2, Zira says that Kovu is Scar's handpicked successor. This clearly shows that Kovu was, in fact, alive during Scar's reign, and that he did, in fact, have an heir, therefore proving that Scar was eating tons of food while everyone else starved for no other reason than his own greed.


3. Character Arc: My opponent says that this time does nothing to show Simba coping with his father's death, but the fact is, it does. Any time his father is mentioned, he gets upset and depressed. Learning "hakuna matata" is especially important for the character arc because it shows that Simba is so scarred with his father's death that he would rather forget about it completely than learn from it, as Rafiki explains to him. Then, when he is forced to accept that he is the rightful king, he turns away from the hakuna matata ideal, instead taking the place of his father. Because it is obvious that thoughts of his father hurt him, the fact that he was able to push through the pain and assume the throne shows how much he has evolved from the beginning of the film to the end, becoming far more mature.


4. Scar Maintaining Rule: My opponent states that a pride of lionesses try to take over the Pridelands with the intention to rule, but this is only a partial truth. Yes, the lionesses plan to take over the Pridelands, but they do not intend to rule it themselves. They have Kovu, who, as I have said before, is Scar's handpicked heir. They want to reinstate him as king of the Pridelands, thus disproving my opponent's claim that prides can be ruled by lionesses as well as lions.


5. Who Killed Mufasa: There is logic behind the claim that the lionesses would not attack Simba if Scar hadn't confessed, contrary to what my opponent stated. Basically, it boils down to this: Scar's life was at the mercy of Simba, and if he hadn't confessed, Simba would have most likely killed him. While he does say that he isn't like Scar in that he won't kill his own family, he does end up fighting Scar very aggressively, and essentially killing him in the end. Thus, with Scar dead, Simba would be king and the lionesses would not attack their king, especially since he would have a chance to explain what had happened. And, contrary to what my opponent claims, it does prove Simba's superior leadership abilities through the fact that when Simba admitted to killing Mufasa, they stayed where they were, unsure if Simba was truly Mufasa's murderer. Then, when Scar confesses, they immediately jump into the fray and follow Simba's leadership. If people are willing to die to put you on the throne, then you must be doing something right.


Unfotunately, my rebuttal is too long to fit within the character limit. I have PM'ed Pro, and he agreed to let me post the rest of my rebuttal in the comments section, so there it will be.

 

what is happening

 

My opponent misinterprets my points against his observation. My second point stated that one cannot discredit their opponent's logic without evidence, while the third stated that one's logic can be based on assumptions gathered from the evidence. No contradiction takes place, only a need for evidence to make assumptions and draw conclusions. My opponent and I have discussed the lack of availability online of the resources mentioned, as they are primarily in print.

1: Favoritism - In this situation, Mufasa's strength served him well. However, this is neither a) evidence pointing away from Scar's abilities as a leader, or b) evidence proving Mufasa's inherent "good". Scar's intelligence is shown throughout the film in his ability to manipulate situations and individuals toward his goals, not simply through his opinion. Con argues that Mufasa took the throne at age 9, yet there is no true way to determine Mufasa's age, other than that he must be older than 3. An estimate of Mufasa's remaining reign cannot be considered accurate.

2a: Overhunting - Yes, the Pridelands ran out of food...after at least 3 years. It is shown in the Elephant Graveyard that hundreds of hyenas survived on very little food. This means that another outside cause MUST have been present to force the herds to leave. The sickly appearance of the land at the end of Scar's rule, as well as its flammability, suggests a large drought. Such an event would force prey to move in search of water. Since the massive increase of food needs that my opponent believes there was would RAPIDLY decrease the population of prey, this influx cannot have been as drastic as he would have the voters believe. Being that there is no official reason for the hyenas' banishment, any theories put forward by my opponent or myself will be only speculation. To avoid speculating, I will not provide an alternative reason for the original banishment.

2b: Scar's Motives - I will raise a question for the consideration of all readers. If Scar's purpose for gaining the throne was to gain limitless power over the Pridelanders, would he have remained in a situation in which they would starve? Kill the subjects my opponent believes he was so desperate to gain? This would leave him with no one to rule over, an entirely illogical chain of events for a power-hungry leader. Therefore, I maintain that Scar ruled with the goal of lowering populations of both lions and hyenas, allowing members of both species to live.

2c: Elitism - The arguments toward the hyenas' eating and its strain on the ecosystem can be seen above. Also, and I realize that this is a minor contradiction, hyenas are primarily scavengers, living off of other predators remaining hunts. The lionesses would have to slightly increase their workload, a reasonable task, seeing their success without the hyenas, and leave some nourishment for the hyenas, as is the natural way. Kovu, an incredibly young cub at the END of Scar's reign, would be far too young to rule in the event of Scar's death, and nonexistent early in Scar's reign. There was a male present, but not yet a POSSIBLE eligible heir.

3: Character Arc - The decision to return to the Pridelands showed a deviation from Hakuna Matata, but the damage was done. Simba's developmental years were spent trying to push away his past, not to become a better leader as he should have been. Though I am aware that he was uninformed about his status in the pride, the fact remains that he was entirely unprepared for the position he took. The single moment of maturity was greatly dampened by the years preceding it.

4: Scar Maintaining Rule - Zira WAS the leader of a pride while raising Kovu, proving that a lioness is capable of doing so in this franchise.

5: Who Killed Mufasa - Simba killing Scar would have been the least intelligent move possible by Simba. Killing the ONE lion capable of clearing his name, even when he wasn't aware that his name should be cleared, would have doomed Simba. In addition, the pride was aware that Simba was a cub at the time of Mufasa's death, so it is unlikely that he would have been killed even if Scar hadn't confessed. Con makes the mistake of stating that the lionesses jump to Simba's rule, while a large percentage remain true to Scar. Simba had proven NOTHING to the people he hoped to lead, his only credentials for being a good leader are in his parentage.

6: Banishment of Scar's Followers - There is a key flaw in my opponent's logic. Stating that the Outlanders rejoined the Pridelands at the end of the sequel is true...but not because of Simba. Simba was prepared to battle to the death, recklessly risking the lives of those in his own pride. The union was a result of the actions of Kovu and Kiara, which lessened the tensions that Simba had a large hand in creating, not ending. Simba grudgingly accepts the resolution, he was not responsible for it. Being that my opponent did not comment on my attack, stating that Simba's birthright did NOT make him a good or just king, the point carries through this round.

7: Justification for Murder - Again, my opponent's logic is flawed. Firstly, he makes the assumption that the hero of a story must be successful in each and every thing that they set out to do, which is entirely false. Secondly, Scar DID save lives, just not the ones that the film or my opponent deem worthy of saving. As I have shown, the hyenas consumed far less food than the lions, and they managed to coexist for several years. Lionesses doing what they've been doing since the species has existed, hunting, does not show oppression, it is continuation. The fact that they did not leave food behind for a population of scavengers, as is the natural way, shows the elite class that existed under Mufasa. Some lions and some hyenas may have eventually died under Scar, but the balance would be restored, and a single species would not be singled out to die entirely by the wishes of those that would live. The hyenas were not oppressive, they survived as nature intended, and it worked UNTIL a DROUGHT drastically and rapidly decreased the prey available. Also, any killing of another is murder, I'm not arguing that Scar didn't kill Mufasa. However, look to the French Revolution, an oddly similar example. An oppressive monarch was executed, freeing the masses under a new leader. Was the monarch murdered? Yes. Was he good and just? No. This situation is almost exactly the same.

8: Definitions - While Oxford may favor Con's definition, the connotation of "protagonist" suggests the hero or "good-guy". My opponent even points out that this is a common error, meaning that this connotation is more widely accepted than the appropriate definition. I will admit that the phrasing of the question may have been technically improper, however, Con did not respond in a single sentence that amounted to "The story followed Simba, he was clearly the main character." For the sake of clarity, the claim being made is as follows: Scar was the True HERO of "The Lion King".

To conclude, I ask that you remove yourselves from the dramatic story for a moment, in which a vile uncle's greed led to a terrible murder, and the heroic son comes to reclaim his birthright to save everyone from certain doom. Look at the timeline, and how it shows that things did NOT quickly fall apart for Scar. Look at the relations before and after Scar's death between all groups presented to you. Look at how well Simba and Mufasa ruled over those NOT included in their selective elite society. You will see, if you can overcome the emotions that the film tapped into, that Scar was the most just ruler to the most subjects. He was the most successful in maintaining peace, and the most efficient in usage of resources available. That Simba and Mufasa, the "heroes", were oppressive and unjust to the many, and kind to the few that the film follows. These true villains caused the deaths of too many, while maintaining their elite support.

 

Great speech; I look forward to the final round.



Observation Rebuttal: I believe that there has been a mutual misunderstanding about my second observation. While I will accept that there is pre-film history (I apologize for my ignorance; the only pre-film evidence I could find was in a wiki, and I make it a point never to use wikis as sources), I am not saying that we do not require evidence. By solid logic, I mean making inferences and deductions based on logic. As Sherlock Holmes states in A Scandal in Bohemia, "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." As such, I will modify my observation for increased clarity.



Observation: All logical assumptions must be backed by evidence. E.g. one cannot say that if Scar had remained king longer, a meteor would have hit the Earth wiping out all life, as that assumption has no evidence, i.e. logic behind it.



1. Favoritism: First of all, I would like to remind my voters that Pro accepted the burden of proof. Unless he intends to back out of his word, it is his responsibility to prove that Mufasa was not intelligent. The only evidence he has provided is Scar's anecdotal claim and the fact that he is manipulative. While I will admit that he is manipulative, the fact that he is shows that he only cares about his own agenda. Scar's claim of intelligence should be disregarded as it is anecdotal. And, contrary to what Pro thinks, it can be proven that Mufasa takes the throne at age 9. According to the ages I presented in my last speech, we can figure that Mufasa was born when Ahadi was around 5. Since it is assumed Ahadi died of old age, and lions live to be 14, Mufasa would have taken the throne when he was 9. Therefore, it can be proven that Mufasa would have reigned longer than Scar.

2a. Overhunting: Even if there was a drought as my opponent claims, the fact remains that many animals died under Scar's rule, despite my opponent's claims that he was trying to save them. Also, my opponent has not addressed the fact that he blatantly denied the option of leaving the Pridelands. And so, while I am willing to accept that a drought occurred, the fact remains that Scar cares nothing for the life of the pride.

2c. Elitism: Contrary to what my opponent claims, hyenas do hunt[1]. Because of this, bringing so many hyenas into the Pridelands unbalanced the ecosystem, again resulting in many deaths. The drought my opponent claims happened only exacerbated it, but didn't cause it. And it says in the movie that Kovu is Scar's handpicked heir. Scar wouldn't be able to handpick anyone if Kovu wasn't alive.

I apologize, but I have been very busy over the past few minutes (I'm working) and so was unable to get to the computer for any reasonable amount of time. As such, I will post the rest of my case in the comments. If Pro disagrees with this, he can PM me and we will decide if this round should count as forfeiture.

 

Figure 1: The Lion King Movie Cover; featuring Simba, Nala, Rafiki, Mufasa’s spirit, and the Animal Kingdom.

The Lion King is one of the most popular and successful Walt Disney Picture films. The Lion King has achieved incredible popularity at the box office and in merchandising (Ward 1996, 172). This Disney animated film follows the adventures of the young lion Prince Simba, heir to the throne of his father, King Mufasa. The film begins with King Mufasa being praised by the animal kingdom. Scar, the second in line to the throne before the birth of Prince Simba plots with the hyenas to murder King Mufasa and Prince Simba in order to overtake the throne. The King is killed and Scar deceives Simba into believing that he was the one who murdered his own father. After experiencing conflict within himself and others, Simba flees the kingdom in shame. Beginning to experience the feelings of loss, despair, triumph and love, Simba embarks on a journey accompanied by friends and family in order to search for his identity and to discover his purpose in life. As a result, the animal kingdom deteriorates under Scar’s reign. This in turn encourages Nala, Simba’s childhood friend, who later falls in love with him, to go on a hunt to find him. Believing in his own destiny, Simba returns to the animal kingdom to claim his throne by defeating Scar. Despite being an animated film, this film was greatly appreciated and well-liked by both children and adults. The Lion King is definitely relevant in American popular culture, as its storyline and soundtrack such as the “Circle of Life” provides a strong message for its audience such that the “Circle of Life” connects all living things as King Mufasa explained to young Simba (Ward, 1996, p. 175). Although it may seem as if this film is made to be an animated film for children starring humanized animals, it is in fact an animated film with a much deeper message. This film actually incorporates abstract and mature themes that can be studied in the context of the theories presented in popular culture and religion. Specifically, the narrative of The Lion King applies gender roles and themes of violence that is utilized for the whole influence of the film. Hence, this analysis will situate the representation in the history of its genre, address the modes of the production of The Lion King, assess the production of The Lion King, a close reading of the purpose of gender roles and violence in the film, and the consumption and reception of the community by focusing on the ways this film may impact its audience with moral standards that support religious values.

Production



Figure 2: Simba encounters friends on his journey to discover his identity singing “Hakuna Matata” (which means “No Worries”)
“Disney is recognized as producing powerful cultural products that make major contributions to many forms of children’s media” (Holcomb, Latham, Fernandez-Baca 2015, p. 1957). Since the release of the film in 1994, The Lion King has been one of the top five highest “domestic grossing film in history” (Ward 1996, 172). The use of catchy songs, rich animation, and a diverse cast of voices were only a few reasons why this film won two Oscars and two Grammy’s for its music, outshining other popular animated films such as Beauty and the Beast (Ward 1996, 172). While the characters are animals, The Lion Kingis nonetheless a very humanizing film as the audience sees the fictional animals as real humans with feelings (Cerniglia and Lynch 2011, 1). This animated film features a society in harmony that later struggles for survival, and finally in a dramatic battle to reinstate peace in the animal kingdom (Ward 1996, 172). Specifically, the story focuses on young Simba who is manipulated by his evil power craving Uncle Scar to leave the animal kingdom. Feeling grief and guilt, Simba leaves in hopes to live a carefree life, in which he encounters a few new friends along the way who convince Simba to fulfill potential and save his animal kingdom (Corner 2001, 431). The production of The Lion King seems to “offer an allegory of moral responsibility for all (men and boys at least), its story allows room for only one such redemption: that of the heir to the throne” (Giddings 1999, 91). The themes of morals, responsibility, and gender roles was repeated throughout the film such as during Simba’s journey to return to the animal kingdom. Additionally, the film also attempts “a level of spirituality, something slightly metaphysical” (Ward 1996, 173). This was relevant in many scenes such as when Rafiki, a shaman, who was able to connect Simba with his father’s spirit in order for them to communicate.



Figure 3: Scar is noticeable darker than the other lions (racism).
The film was not only successful from the features that were previously mentioned, but an important feature of the film’s success results from the film’s use of “mythic narrative, that, by its nature, advocates a morality” (Ward 1996, 172). Films such as The Lion King, help both children and adults “try to figure out their moral significance” of their lives. Disney films are known to present a “responsible moral vision” for its viewers. Hence, narratives in a sense dramatize our existence. However, Disney films cannot just be seen as commodified objects, but must be seen as commodified culture such that personalities and identities are presented in a children’s way and adults nostalgia (Giddings 1999, 85). This will be discussed further in the next sections. There are many features of The Lion King that is ideal to teaching such as the “leadership themes, coupled with its brevity and entertainment value”. Despite this film having a G rating, do not be fooled that it is merely a kiddie cartoon, “its contemporary dialogue, sophisticated humor, considerable violence, and catchy plot-advancing score” is suitable and certainly catches the attention of people of all ages (Corner 2001, 431). Keep in mind that this film focuses on Simba’s journey to search for his identity and to discover his purpose in life, all of which is relatable to the experience of the audience. Despite such success The Lion King accumulated, there is also criticism regarding this film that did not seem to affect the success of this film. Many critics attacked this film for its sexism such that the female characters are ultimately victims and the men are power-craving competitors; racism such that Scar is darker than the other lions and has a black mane and the hyenas were also black; misrepresentation of Africa such that the only feature of Africa to be celebrated is its wildlife; and the violent content throughout the entire film (Giddings 1999, 88). Given that many of these critics believed that this was a children’s film, they heavily criticized the violent content. Though things like sexism and racism are not obvious to children, critics heavily criticized these hidden imageries from the older target audience.

Clearly, The Lion King is considered to be categorized in the genre of tragedy because of its tragic storyline of suffering from violence and death (Wilson 2008, 94). This is significant because although the storyline of films is created in a sense to maintain the viewers interest throughout the movie, it does not seem suitable for a Disney animated film to have a tragic story. The criticism of the use of tragedy in children’s film is because of “the way these symbols are interpreted leads to the development of particular moods and motivations in those who find the symbols meaningful” as Klassen explains (Klassen 2014, p. 15–16). Hence, critics are concerned that the genre of this film can easily influence children’s moods and motivations in a negative way since children often imitate most things that they perceive. Thus, we must examine the cultural content of The Lion King to determine “the potential impact they may have on the socialization of children and on the promotion of cultural values” (Wormer & Juby 2016, p. 584).

Close Reading



Figure 4: Scar is about to murder Mufasa (violent content & good and evil).
Despite The Lion King being produced by Walt Disney Picture films, which is usually targeted towards a younger audience, this film contains many themes that are not appropriate for children. As previously mentioned, sexism (including gender roles) and violent content was present throughout the entire film. More specifically, this film is almost exclusively concerned with masculinity. Furthermore, there is a theme of good and evil that is throughout the film such that “good and evil take on the physical attributes of muscular against skinny, and in each the mane functions as emblem of masculinity and power, as patriarchal signifier” (Giddings 1999, 89). For instance, the final scene of the film where Simba confronts Scar for their final battle was to provide a thrilling and dramatic end to the film as well as to reinforce media’s beliefs of male masculinity. Despite the younger audience, The Lion King continues to promote masculinity through acts of violence, which is generally what popular culture nowadays associate together. Moreover, it is Rafiki, a shaman baboon friend that Simba encounters along the way of his journey, who finally knocks some sense into him by hitting him on the head with his stick. This initiation marks the end of adolescence and resembles a very similar African story related to Bly in which “a boy’s passage into manhood begun with a blow to his head form his father’s axe” (Giddings 1999, 90). This also refers to the exact moment that Simba becomes a man and loses his innocence in a refusal to be involved in minor political corruption (Giddings 1999, 90). Overall, many instances in this film were used to reproduce and reinforce the same masculine values. This is evident in the film when Simba flees the animal kingdom feeling insecure and self-doubting that he cannot rule the kingdom as well as his father did, but ultimately accepting his self-worth and returning to reclaim his animal kingdom by conquering Scar in a violent battle. Additionally, religious features are found within reinforcing masculinity through violence. For instance, Simba’s determination to defeat Scar was ultimately to reinstate harmony and freedom in the animal kingdom. These acts of violence resemble many things that are relevant in institutional religion such as the existence of good and evil in the world such as Simba and the animal kingdom against Scar and his hyena allies. In other words, the result is “nature out of balance and the destruction of the land” (Ward 1996, 173) As Ward (1996) explains, “in the biblical narrative, that means that evil is in the world, and Satan is alive and at work, a reality in which Christians believe” (Ward 1996, 173). Furthermore, this also raises the religious content of God and the Devil. There are mysteries in life that point to a transcendent, spiritual reality. The Lion Kingdemonstrates this through the use of biblical myths (Ward 1996, 175) More specifically, the instance in which shaman baboon Rafiki was able to connect Simba to Mufasa’s spirit in the sky. During this scene, Mufasa influences Simba to return to the animal kingdom as this was the final push needed for him to return and defeat Scar to claim his rightful role as the king. Similar to the play, Hamlet, Hamlet says “there’s a divinity that shapes our ends, rough hew them how we will” (V.ii. 10–11) (Gavin 1996, 56). In both Hamlet and The Lion King, Hamlet and Simba both accepted their fate and have returned home to claim their rightful places as kings. Evidently, Mufasa’s spiritual presence and his message to Simba can be compared to that of God, which ultimately lead Simba to conform with his morals to return and fight as a means to bring back peace to the animal kingdom. Thus, through examining the violent content of this film and its relation to religious features, this film ultimately reinforces the gender roles of male masculinity through violence.

Consumption and Reception

The media certainly has a great influence on children’s behavior and moral values. Disney films, especially, have incredible influence in American popular culture and have begun to be a significant moral educator. Disney animated films are generally fairytales that not only tell a story but also present a given moral. The Lion King obviously presents moralizing as well as teaching other values, both positive and some that may be categorized as negative. It does so through words, pictures, and music in a sense that children are involved in the narrative (Ward 1996, 172). Hence, films are produced in such a way to get its audience to resonate with the characters. As a result, the objective of the media is to teach the younger audience to be able to distinguish between right and wrong. Additionally, the reason as to why this film received criticism is because of its hidden representations of racism, sexism, and the misrepresentation of many things as previously mentioned. Since Disney films act as a moral educator for children, hidden themes that encourage discrimination also has the ability to influence children in a negative way. Studies have shown that even a single exposure to a television episode or movie can change “children’s ideas about emotions in real life and is consistent with the idea that media portrayals can influence a child’s mental representation, or schema, for emotional events” (Wilson 2008, 91). This shows that children can not only observe and share emotions caused by media characters, but also react directly to “emotionally charged evens depicted in the media” (Wilson 2008, 92). Consequently, it is clear that media within popular culture has the ability to influence children in both positive and negative ways that affect their development. Hence, this film has received a lot of criticism regarding the rating for this film as it contains many mature themes.

Despite the many mature themes present in this film, there are also many appropriate themes in this film that are valuable to teach the younger audience. Throughout the entire film, a few of the main reoccurring themes were the fundamental leadership skills, traits, behaviors, and the consequences of a leader’s abandonment of responsibility (Corner 2001, 430). Before the death of Mufasa, he advised and guided young Simba of all the knowledge and preparation needed to take over his reign. This resembles the way in which parents teach children all the knowledge and preparation needed to step into the real world on their own. Overall, children (as well as young lions) must accept responsibility in order to develop into adulthood. This relates to different religious values seen in our society today in a sense that people must understand morals.

Figure 5: The Lion King — “Circle of Life”


Figure 6: The baptism/celebration of the life of Simba and Nala’s new cub presented to the animal kingdom.
Another key component of the entire film is the theme song, “Circle of Life”, which posits that everything is part of the Circle of Life. This song certainly expresses religious meanings and teaches the significance of “relationships as part of the food chain, as well as the reality that life and death are part of the same circle” (Ward 1996, 175). Once Simba realized his full potential, he restored order in the animal kingdom and took his place in the circle of life (Gavin 1996, 57). Hence, another important message that is associated in this song is “birth, death, and new birth are part of creation, and death is not something unnatural” (Ward 1996, 175). In other words, this shows that life is precious and valuable so we must live it to our fullest potentials and accept that everything happens for a reason. For instance, the ritual of baptism, which was shown in the beginning of the film for Simba and the end of the film for Simba and Nala’s new cub adds significance to that fact, and the circle of life continues (Ward 1996, 174). Clearly, Simba and his new cub’s “baptism” in this film is another religious perception. Both Simba and his new cub participated in a ritual led by Rafiki, who in a sense acted as a pastor to officially present the celebration of these new lives to the animal kingdom. Thus, the religious theme of the interconnectedness of family and life were present in throughout the film.

Evidently, The Lion King communicates moral education to teach children the important factors needed to successfully develop into adulthood. Since children nowadays live in a world where many of their experiences are “mediated by screen technologies” (Wilson 2008, 88), Disney films try to present its content and stories in a way that shows the importance of moral values. Hence, this allows parents to teach their children in an engaging way through religious views. These were the ways in which The Lion King was received by its audience of consumers and interpreters.

Bibliography

Barbara J. Wilson. “Media and Children’s Aggression, Fear, and Altruism.” The Future of Children 18, no. 1 (2008): 87–118. "); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px); background-repeat: repeat no-repeat;">https://muse.jhu.edu/ (accessed November 7, 2016).

Comer, Debra. 2001. “Not just a Mickey Mouse Exercise: Using Disney’s the Lion King to Teach Leadership.” Journal of Management Education 25 (4): 430–436. doi:10.1177/105256290102500407. "); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px); background-repeat: repeat no-repeat;">http://resolver.scholarsportal.info/resolve/10525629/v25i0004/430_njammetlkttl.

Gavin, Rosemarie. “”The Lion King” and “Hamlet”: A Homecoming for the Exiled Child.” The English Journal 85, no. 3 (1996): 55–57.

Giddings, Seth. 1999. “The Circle of Life.” Third Text 13 (49): 83–92. doi:10.1080/09528829908576825. "); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px); background-repeat: repeat no-repeat;">http://resolver.scholarsportal.info/resolve/09528822/v13i0049/83_tcol.

Holcomb, Jeanne, Kenzie Latham, and Daniel Fernandez-Baca. 2015. “Who Cares for the Kids? Caregiving and Parenting in Disney Films.” Journal of Family Issues 36 (14): 1957–1981. doi:10.1177/0192513X13511250. "); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px); background-repeat: repeat no-repeat;">http://resolver.scholarsportal.info/resolve/0192513x/v36i0014/1957_wcftkcapidf.

Ken Cerniglia and Aubrey Lynch II. “Embodying Animal, Racial, Theatrical, and Commercial Power in The Lion King.” Dance Research Journal 43, no. 1 (2011): 3–9. "); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px); background-repeat: repeat no-repeat;">https://muse.jhu.edu/ (accessed November 7, 2016).

Klassen, Chris. “Religion and Popular Culture.” In Religion and Popular Culture: A Cultural Studies Appproach, 7–28. Don Mills: Oxford University Press, 2014.

van Wormer, Katherine, Cindy Juby, Katherine van Wormer, and Cindy Juby. 2016. “Cultural Representations in Walt Disney Films: Implications for Social Work Education.” Journal of Social Work 16 (5): 578–594. doi:10.1177/1468017315583173. "); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px); background-repeat: repeat no-repeat;">http://resolver.scholarsportal.info/resolve/14680173/v16i0005/578_criwdfifswe.

Ward, Annalee R. 1996. “The Lion King’s Mythic Narrative: Disney as Moral Educator.” Journal of Popular Film and Television 2

 

Sanch

 

Ask yourselves, how can leaders that condemn a massive percentage of their population to starve, only to slightly improve the lives of the few elite that the story chooses to follow, be considered heroic? How can the leader that allows the masses to survive for the entirety of his reign, at the expense of the ruler that oppressed them, be considered villainous? How can an occurrence as natural as the weather, and its effects, be blamed on an individual? How can ending an elitist society, in favor of a natural balance, be considered evil? How can someone that takes into account the needs of the many, not just the few, and acts to provide those needs, be considered a tyrant? How can someone that maintains support of half of the former elite society be seen as an unjust king? How can a leader that removes the slightest traces of progress that occurred previous to his rule be viewed as a just, fair, and kind ruler?

Voters, if any of the above questions were answered with something to the effect of, "they can't", or, "they shouldn't", then you must accept that you have been mislead about the role of these characters. Once again, I will ask that you allow yourself to take a step back from the dramatic tone of The Lion King. Let yourself examine the facts objectively, and to develop your opinion based on what you have observed here, not based on what the film wants your opinion to be.

Whether you now agree that Scar was wrongly viewed in the film or not is now out of my hands. I would like to thank my opponent for a heated debate, which has actually strengthened my opinion on this issue. I wish him the best of luck in the polls, and I would be more than glad to debate again if one of us should find an intriguing question. I would also like to thank the voters for their consideration of our arguments, and I greatly anticipate seeing whether I was successful in expressing my views, or whether Con managed to hold on to your opinion of the film.

 

Hater of the New Lola Bunny would say this:
"The new Lola is a real disappointment. She was so independent and intelligent in Space Jam. What happened?"

Well the person that knows what the word "LOONEY" means would say this:
"No, she was a slutty hooker, and in NO way "independent" as she probably made a living on her back, this Lola is a major improvement upon the old Lola, as she is actually comedic."

NOW...I'm not giving an offense but, why would you hate the new Lola Bunny? she's so looney! Would you give me a certain reason why? (and in a final note: Don't give me answers which are RANTS pretty please?)And in every answer you give, I'll try to explain it to you. :D

 

I’m not going to mince my words here - shut the fuck up dear god

 

please

 

if ur gonna quote me at least @ me