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Unraveling the Sexism of Emo’s Third Wave

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by Melody Bot, Nov 17, 2017.

  1. Melody Bot

    Your friendly little forum bot. Staff Member

    This article has been imported from for discussion. All of the forum rules still apply.

    Jenn Pelly, writing for Pitchfork:

    Third-wave emo—bubblegum emo—needed its female fans, as evidenced by the swaths of girls who screamed this music back, who took photos, who muscled against stages to get as close as possible without being crushed. But the scene did not really want us.

    I am suggesting here that there is a correlation between misogynist art, the young people who make it, and the younger people who consume it. That is not a radical idea, and it strikes me now as dubious that any longtime Brand New fan would be completely shocked by these allegations. Women have long been shouting about the fucked-up power dynamics of pop-punk and third-wave emo, which have continued into the present.

  2. Very good read along with Zoe Camp’s take today
    AshlandATeam likes this.
  3. cwhit

    still emperor emo Prestigious

    been great seeing these highly respected, fantastic female writers putting their takes out there. they're viewpoints that we all need to see
  4. Yellowcard2006


    From a linked MTV article in that pitchfork article

    From 2003

    Well Jesse never was less than an amazing song writer. Surely this current state is worse than that.
  5. ihaveblink


    Well speaking of Senses Fail, wasn't the whole "Angela Baker and my obsession with Fire" a clever way for Buddy Neilson a tongue in cheek way to say he's not straight? He's a "flamer"? Or did I read way too much into this? I know Buddy isn't gay, but I always saw his lyrics as not entirely about women.
  6. skogsraet

    Trusted Supporter

    Idk where you’re going with this, but casual reminder, men can be gay and misogynistic. It’s actually pretty common.

    I also don’t know why anyone would try to defend Senses Fail after reading the lyrics quoted in the article.
    AshlandATeam, dylan and Jason Tate like this.
  7. ihaveblink


    I never defended their lyrics, I only offer the idea that I don't automatically assume their lyrics are specifically always about women.
  8. chewbacca110

    He wrenches on it. He thinks it's his.

    Both are excellent articles. Thanks for sharing!
  9. zachmacD Nov 17, 2017
    (Last edited: Nov 17, 2017)


    Not that it makes it much better but the writer messed up the lyrics that she referenced. It's "so love me gently with a chainsaw". Not "So let me love thee". I agree with her point but she may want to check her article for accuracy before posting.
  10. Jason Tate Nov 17, 2017
    (Last edited: Nov 17, 2017)
    It's referenced/quoted differently different places:

    Senses Fail - Tie Her Down Lyrics | SongMeanings
    Senses Fail – Tie Her Down Lyrics | Genius Lyrics

    And "thee" is what Google puts in their box/Google Play.

    It's also what Apple Music/iTunes has as the official lyrics:


    (Fucking disgusting song.)
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  11. zachmacD


  12. Who has CDs around? Let alone that shitty one. If you're going to quote a song, using the lyrics on iTunes and Google Play is just fine. Especially when it's clearly in dispute online.
    Aaron Mook and AshlandATeam like this.
  13. MrCon

    I was trying to describe myself to someone

    Just read the three articles about Brand New and they're all pretty demoralising. The total lack of women in that musical movement does look really weird in hindsight, which I never really considered at the time. Particularly as it seemed to have a big percentage female fanbase.

    However, I've seen a few articles pick out Me Vs Madonna vs Elvis as being a 'date rape' song. It's dark and unpleasant, but if you're going to start considering all art autobiographical, things are going to get very troubling indeed. Can't agree with the sentiment there.
  14. Saephon


    I won't defend those lyrics, but I'll defend Buddy specifically: he has shown extraordinary growth and owned up to the shitty things he used to write. I've been following him on social media for years now, and there's been a drastic change over time. Definitely someone who tries to speak out for women and minorities, and you can see the change reflected in recent Senses Fail lyrics.
    cwhit likes this.
  15. cwhit

    still emperor emo Prestigious

    nobody claims it as autobiographical, the meaning of a song can mean something problematic without it actually being something the artist has done
  16. cwhit

    still emperor emo Prestigious

    and this is definitely something important for all these artists that were problematic back in the early 2000s, hopefully more artists will take this lead and be more public about condemning their older stuff and proving they've learned and being active allies for a better environment
  17. zachmacD


    This argument is really stupid. The song is shitty but your point of being able to inaccurately quote someone because they don't have the access to the source material is just as stupid. Pick a lyric that you know is accurate. This scene has plenty gross lyrics for her to choose from. Her inaccurate quote just makes me think she was looking for misogynistic lyrics to use for her article. If I wrote a piece on the forums on this site and misquoted someone, I'd have tons of members, most likely you included, quoting and bashing me for doing just that
    ihaveblink likes this.
  18. MrCon

    I was trying to describe myself to someone

    Second paragraph of the article suggests otherwise.
  19. Do you have a picture of the lyric book?

    There's multiple live videos that sound exactly like "take thee" to me. I don't think it's as black and white inaccurate as you are saying. That's what I'm saying. There are multiple good sources for this specific quote.
    AshlandATeam likes this.
  20. cwhit

    still emperor emo Prestigious

    Of course, Lacey has denied that these lyrics are autobiographical, claiming that he was describing a nightmare he feared; only a monster would accept these thoughts as his own. Lacey still found them suitable to sing on Brand New’s breakout record, attaching his name to them forever.

    she never denies his statement that they weren't autobiographical. she just says that even if they aren't it's still wary that he sang them in the first place
  21. zachmacD Nov 17, 2017
    (Last edited: Nov 17, 2017)


    I'll do my best to find one for you. The quote is from the movie "Heathers" where they say so f*ck me gently with a chainsaw butfrom what I remember Vagrant told them to change it to "love". That's from the Alternative Press article from when they were on the cover
  22. Cool. I still think the author's source for the lyrics (Google Play, iTunes, Shazaam, and LyricFind) are good ones and your "she may want to check her article for accuracy before posting" comment was over the top.
    AshlandATeam and skogsraet like this.
  23. ReginaPhilange

    Trusted Prestigious

    what's kind of ironic is Okay I Believe you is basically a satire of that scene and some of it's issues, specifically the male arrogance.
  24. zachmacD


    Maybe. I've been listening and grown with Senses Fail since I was 14 years old. From listening to the band and being obsessed with them growing up ,like the writers claim to be with Brand New, I knew that those lyrics were wrong. To me, it's unfair to use a band who've used their platform to support women and the lgbtq community while also losing fans doing so. Then on top of that to misquote the lyrics
  25. They can do good things now and still have done horrific shit in the past, which is what this article is talking about -- that era of music. They don't get a pass, those albums happened. (They still play some of the fucked up gross songs live too.) Hell, they are making money for Pure Noise Records right now. The label that covered up for Front Porch Step and No Good News.
    AshlandATeam and skogsraet like this.