UK and Europe World • Page 57

Discussion in 'Politics Forum' started by aranea, May 19, 2017.

  1. awakeohsleeper

    I do not exist.

    He's placed two but they're unlikely to succeed unless the government picks them up:
     
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  2. Letterbomb31 Jan 16, 2019
    (Last edited: Jan 16, 2019)
    Letterbomb31

    fascism is capitalism in decay Prestigious

    I completely disagree. If Corbyn had called a vote of no confidence in the government in December, it would've united the Tories at a time when they were ripping each other apart and before the vote on May's Brexit deal. There's nothing they fear more than a Corbyn/McDonnell-led Labour government. If Corbyn had called the vote in December it would've lost without question. The SNP/Lib Dems were being disingenuous in pushing him to call the vote in December, as they knew it would undoubtedly fail; they have no interest in a general election and they were simply looking to clear the way for a so-called "people's vote". Strategically, it made sense for Corbyn to wait until there was a realistic chance of the motion passing, e.g. after the government had suffered a catastrophic defeat of historic proportions, like it did last night. In all likelihood, the vote of no confidence probably still won't pass, but there's more chance of it succeeding now than there was in December. Also, I would love to see Tory MPs who voted down May's Brexit deal try and explain how they can still support her government.

    In regards to his leadership, you can disagree with his approach but I don't think it's accurate to say there's been a "lack of leadership". He's literally following the democratic decision made at Labour party conference to push for a general election, while keeping the possibility of a second referendum on the table. Polling shows that the majority of Labour members think Corbyn is doing a good job as leader of the Labour party.
     
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  3. Wharf Rat

    I know a little something you won't ever know Prestigious

    The biggest thing this current no confidence vote does is allow cowardly Tories to be hammered on the point of "you voted against her deal but propped up her government, revealing that your priorities are nothing but holding power" in whatever election eventually happens
     
  4. awakeohsleeper

    I do not exist.

    I totally respect that, but the fact that he has chosen to 'play politics' has irked me. There was no need to submit the motion of confidence in December when he knew it didn't have chance of being debated. It was an odd decision. I was fine with him waiting (and I even think today's vote is an example where he perhaps should have waited because there's no chance the Tories will vote for him). He's gone on about not forcing a vote until the right moment but the DUP were clear they'd back the government today, so why was this the right moment? In this current state, sadly, Tories trying to explain why they had no confidence in May, voted against her deal but now back the government doesn't mean anything to Tory supporters or to most who still want to leave. So although I appreciate the love that you have for that, it's not changing much. Those that see through their lies and their squirms have already seen through it. We know they're propping up a government they don't believe in. Views are entrenched at this point. That doesn't change the perspective of an ardent leave supporter from my perspective. It's political point scoring and not much else.

    Glad that most Labour supports are pleased with him and he's following the democratic mandate he has. I've been voting Green because the Sheffield Labour Party is atrocious, but as someone not committed to Labour, I do think a bit more clarity and leadership would have sunk this government. You may well be right that using the phrase "lack of leadership" is inaccurate, but perhaps the problem is his style of leadership. I keep waiting for the killer blow, but in my opinion nothing has landed on a very vulnerable, weak and almost universally disliked leader - as I said before, the amount of times we've said it's over for May in this thread illustrates that.

    At the end of the day, he is ideologically committed to leaving the EU but on a social platform. That means his opposition to what is going on comes across as weak and less vocal than other MPs in his party and other leaders. It is what it is. That is who he is and what he believes and he is walking a tightrope of trying to appeal to both sides of the leave/remain divide. It's a difficult position for him and I think it's made him less effective than he could have been.

    At the end of the day we don't know what's going to happen. Maybe the history books will judge him kindly. At the moment I've lost a lot of the respect I had for him and I'm hoping that he proves me wrong because we need some way out of this mess. There's still time... but not much.
     
  5. Letterbomb31 Jan 16, 2019
    (Last edited: Jan 16, 2019)
    Letterbomb31

    fascism is capitalism in decay Prestigious

    I don't think he was "playing politics", he was applying as much pressure as possible without carelessly throwing away the chance of passing a motion of no confidence in the government. If you take that stance about views being so strongly entrenched, then what's the point of making any attacks on the government lol? Corbyn is right to make attempts to weaken public confidence in May. The fact that May's Brexit withdrawal deal is even being debated in parliament is because Corbyn smashed her majority in 2017. If May had gained more MPs in that election, she could've sailed straight through parliament with whatever type of Brexit she wanted.

    It's a shame that you vote Green. We have what may well be a once in a lifetime opportunity to elect a transformative Labour government led by a democratic socialist, why pass up on that? Brexit isn't the only issue at hand here. Even if we were to remain in the EU, it will make no difference to the thousands of people languishing in poverty due to Tory austerity.

    The fact that May is still PM is more of a testament to the fact that her position is a poisoned chalice and there are no other Tories who fancy taking over from her. I don't think she's still in place because Corbyn has failed to land a "killer blow". I mean, I'm genuinely curious, what exactly do you mean by a "killer blow"? What action could he have taken to remove May as PM?

    In the referendum, Corbyn campaigned for remain and reform. Had that been the line of the official Remain campaign it would've stood a much better chance of succeeding imo. If Owen Smith had won the 2016 Labour Leadership election, I think there's every chance Labour would have only won 25% in the 2017 general election. The Lib Dems have been calling for a second referendum for years and they haven't exactly surged in the polls (in fact, they've stagnated).
     
  6. Wharf Rat

    I know a little something you won't ever know Prestigious

    I think it's also worth noting that even if Corbyn were personally a hard remainer, he'd probably be in a position somewhat similar to May where he'd have to support honoring the referendum and getting as soft a brexit as possible....clearly the portion of labour voters that support leaving is less than conservative voters, but right now those voters have nowhere to go if they're dissatisfied, with both parties saying they're going to honor the referendum. If Corbyn came full out for a second referendum, labour leavers would have the option of voting conservative to make sure brexit happens. That's not as many voters as the tories would have to worry about losing if they were in the same spot clearly but it could be enough to lose an election
     
  7. Letterbomb31

    fascism is capitalism in decay Prestigious


     
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  8. Letterbomb31

    fascism is capitalism in decay Prestigious

     
  9. Letterbomb31

    fascism is capitalism in decay Prestigious

     
  10. Wharf Rat

    I know a little something you won't ever know Prestigious

    a YEAR good lord what torture would that be

     
  11. Wharf Rat

    I know a little something you won't ever know Prestigious

     
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  12. awakeohsleeper

    I do not exist.

    Sorry, was off ill yesterday so didn't get chance to come on here. Thankfully it gave me chance to sit and reflect.

    I still think that the opposition parties were in exactly the same position on Wednesday as they were in December and that a vote of no confidence was never going to work whilst DUP are actively saying they'll support May's government. However, my use of phrase 'playing politics' is possibly wrong - or indeed, maybe it's more fair to say any senior politician is playing politics. You have to to get into that position.

    In terms of the entrenched comments I feel you missed what I said - I think I was pretty clear that I was talking specifically about Brexit views and the specific situation at hand, not inferring that there is no point ever attacking the government. I just meant that there was no real difference between December and now in terms of an actual vote of no confidence and that the motion of no confidence in May still seems, to me, as an odd decision. I guess I don't see what he did in December as an effective means of attacking/holding the govt to account/making a point. Others may disagree - I'm happy with that. It just wasn't for me.

    You are right that Corbyn has done very well in terms of the 2017 election.

    I should have been more clear about my voting - I voted Green because I lived in a Labour safe seat in Sheffield. Locally the Sheffield Labour Party are awful. They have lied and cheated and when people in Sheffield have exposed those lies, they've not been held accountable and prop each other up. They're more New Labour and I cannot justify voting for them. It was right to not vote for them and we've seen some amazing, young Green councillors elected, including Magid who has been in the ceremonial position of Lord Mayor for the last year and doing a lot to raise awareness about important issues and expose racism in the city. I'm pleased to vote for them on a local level. As for the general election, I had spoken to my MP Paul Blomfield several times about the issues at a local level and he sadly responded with disdain, arrogance and borderline aggression. I actually like him as an MP, but his refusal to listen and his blind support for the Sheffield Labour councillors has meant that I have lost faith in him. As he operates in a safe seat with no chance of being shifted, I felt justified voting for the Green Party candidate. In our system my vote basically doesn't count. I knew it wouldn't impact Corbyn.

    In terms of a 'killer blow', I've decided I've just been naive. I think in this thread if you go back over the last two and a bit years there have been so many "goodbye May" posts that I think I got caught up in that and felt that she should have gone. Fact is, she's hung on and maybe it's unfair to blame him. The circumstances are ultimately unpredictable - who would have guessed we'd have a situation where so many Tories would vote against May in their own leadership vote of no confidence, but then support her in a vote of no confidence in the government. It's a strange world. Has Corbyn done enough overall? I don't know. I honestly would have loved to have seen more from him in the past month but he has presided over the opposition during the biggest government defeat and you can't take that away from him.

    I'm opposed to another referendum but would vote remain if they do decide to go down that route.

    I agree.

    This makes me think - do you (or anyone else) think that an election would produce an overall majority for either party? Everything is so polarised now that I don't know whether we'd have a similar situation, perhaps with Corbyn being in May's position with more MPs but not enough for an overall majority.

    All speculation but it seems everything is more entrenched.
     
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  13. Letterbomb31 Jan 19, 2019
    (Last edited: Jan 19, 2019)
    Letterbomb31

    fascism is capitalism in decay Prestigious

     
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  14. Letterbomb31

    fascism is capitalism in decay Prestigious


     
  15. awakeohsleeper

    I do not exist.

     
  16. Stahly

    Newbie

    What's wrong with Gavin Williamson's weekend? Bar a possible splinter or two, that looks like fun. haha
     
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  17. awakeohsleeper Feb 18, 2019
    (Last edited: Feb 18, 2019)
    awakeohsleeper

    I do not exist.

    You just can't predict what will happen next. 7 Labour MPs resign the whip and will sit as independent MPs in response to anti-semitism in the party and what they perceive to be a poor Brexit policy.



    Edit: looks like they're calling themselves The Independent Group so not sure if they are setting themselves up to form a party further down the line.
     
  18. Letterbomb31

    fascism is capitalism in decay Prestigious





     
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  19. Letterbomb31

    fascism is capitalism in decay Prestigious

     
  20. Wharf Rat

    I know a little something you won't ever know Prestigious

    What cowards. Absolutely pricks
     
  21. Wharf Rat

    I know a little something you won't ever know Prestigious

    Was a bit worried about this but - and its obviously still bad but - if Seymour says its gonna fail, I think its probably gonna fail. (Article is on patreon but freely available)

     
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  22. awakeohsleeper

    I do not exist.

    Yeah, the more I'm reading about it, the more it just seems they'll probably all lose their seats at the next election. Misguided attempt at whatever their actual aim is.
     
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  23. Wharf Rat

    I know a little something you won't ever know Prestigious

    tfw u left the labour party over "racism"

     
  24. Wharf Rat

    I know a little something you won't ever know Prestigious

    (drake voice) remember

     
  25. Letterbomb31

    fascism is capitalism in decay Prestigious

     
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