UK and Europe World • Page 2

Discussion in 'Politics Forum' started by aranea, May 19, 2017.

  1. Jamie Dagg

    Master of not knowing what the hell I'm doing.

    It's a difficult one to call really, just looked at polling figures from 2015 and some polls just before election day had the Tories as much as 6 points ahead of Labour. Given that we're between 9 and 12 points behind at the moment and we've made up 12 to 15 points thus far, I can see it being doable to beat that. Don't get me wrong, it's by no means a certainty or even close but I'd like to think come the Question Time Q and As coming up Labour will be able to pick up some points.

    I think what has actually worked well in Labour's favour is that criticisms of Labour and Corbyn have been out in the public since 2015. The Tories have a bit of a broken record effect going for them because there's nothing substantive to add to their criticisms, whereas the new Tory policies have a lot of fresh ground to cover for Labour to really hit home on.
     
  2. Jamie Dagg

    Master of not knowing what the hell I'm doing.

    It's difficult, I like getting a US perspective on politics over here that I can't really see happening in a segregated thread but I also don't like having like 10 new pages to read through in there every day... Go figure. People will post where they want to post I guess.
     
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  3. Letterbomb31

    Trusted Prestigious

    This thread seems to be picking up a little bit now, so maybe give it a go for a week and see how it goes? If it dies during that time then just close it down. But hopefully it will become really active with lots of great tweets and conversation!
     
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  4. Letterbomb31 May 21, 2017
    (Last edited: May 21, 2017)
    Letterbomb31

    Trusted Prestigious

    Another poll


     
  5. Jamie Dagg

    Master of not knowing what the hell I'm doing.

    As far as I'm aware telephone polling tends to favour Tories too as they tend to be more likely to be answered by older people too. If so, that 5 point drop for the conservatives is catastrophic for them.
     
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  6. Whatjuliansaid

    News on once the clouds are gone. Prestigious

    I'm seeing a lot of great marketing rhetoric from labour lately
     
  7. Jamie Dagg

    Master of not knowing what the hell I'm doing.

    One thing for sure is Labour knows how to kill it on social media. The grassroots nature of the party at the moment means anything they want to go viral basically does- Corbyn speaking at a libertines gig to 20,000 people yesterday being a good example.
     
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  8. Whatjuliansaid

    News on once the clouds are gone. Prestigious

    Seems like it, they're also very to the point and cut the bs. I wish we had candidates that didn't sugarcoat literally everything.
     
  9. Jamie Dagg

    Master of not knowing what the hell I'm doing.

    My worry is in some cases they go too far in that direction here. One of our prominent candidates Barry Gardiner is adored by Labour members for this but I think he can come across as almost aggressive because of it. My hope is that the wider electorate see it closer to your view than mine!
     
  10. Whatjuliansaid

    News on once the clouds are gone. Prestigious

    I guess it depends how common that is there, if it happens too often it can be seen as boring; I suppose. For me personally, I don't understand why it's bad because I generally think a lot of less informed people need to be told the truth directly and not nonsense. That's what makes up a lot of voters, unfortunately. Maybe it's different there but this is just from my perspective.

    Speaking campaign is another thing entirely, I feel like in France melenchon came off that way to many people and he turned them off so I understand what you mean. There is definitely a need for being blunt in some cases but if the person delivering it doesn't seem polite, it can come off too stern.
     
  11. Jamie Dagg

    Master of not knowing what the hell I'm doing.

    Yeah it's about the balance. Can totally understand why as an American you can feel like you need it a lot- politics over there, to me, feels so artificial.
     
  12. Letterbomb31 May 22, 2017
    (Last edited: May 22, 2017)
    Letterbomb31

    Trusted Prestigious



    Just makes me wonder where we'd be in the polls if the leadership hadn't been constantly attacked by Labour MPs over the last two years. During the leadership coup last year, certain Labour MPs were briefing hundreds of negative stories about Corbyn to the press everyday. It's laughable that some think that's had no impact on Corbyn's reputation/position in the polls. Labour are doing so well in the polls atm when you take that all into account, but I think we could be doing so much better if the likes of Jess Phillips hadn't publically criticised Corbyn so consistently over the last two years.

    For all the criticism about Labour's messaging under Corbyn, I think it's been great during the campaign. Labour's offer to the electorate is so much clearer under Corbyn's leadership than it was with Miliband and that's clearly cutting through if the polls are to be believed. If Labour lose, it will mostly be down to the sabotage of MPs like Phillips. However, in the event of a Labour loss, the media will re-embrace the myth that MPs hostile to Corbyn have been silent since he won the 2nd leadership contest, and claim that he can therefore own the defeat. What utter bollocks.

    Edit: Also, imagine where Labour would be in the polls right now if Owen Smith had won the last leadership contest. The offer of a second referendum on the EU is seemingly politically toxic according to the Liberal Democrats' collapse in the polls. Therefore I can only assume that Labour would be facing the possibility of an even more crushing defeat if they had embraced that position as they would have under Smith.
     
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  13. Letterbomb31

    Trusted Prestigious


     
  14. Jamie Dagg

    Master of not knowing what the hell I'm doing.

    To be fair, I've followed Phillips for a while now, since long before the coup. I don't think it's a deliberate attempt on her part to undermine Corbyn, I just think part of her personal appeal is to be completely honest about her opinions- quite similar to how Corbyn was in the Blair years. Granted it isn't helpful to the party directly, but by backing her own appeal it's helping strengthen the party by securing her position.

    And actually, watching Peston the closest thing to a criticism I can remember seeing was her saying scrapping university fees wouldn't have been her priority but it was a good priority to have. Not saying she hasn't been critical before but I don't think she was in this case.
     
  15. Jamie Dagg

    Master of not knowing what the hell I'm doing.


    Also this pretty much sums up what I was saying last night- Labour is definitely getting their message out better.
     
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  16. Letterbomb31 May 22, 2017
    (Last edited: May 22, 2017)
    Letterbomb31

    Trusted Prestigious

    Eh, I think it's totally different. Corbyn disagreed with Blair on policy, whereas Phillips seems to go for Corbyn by perpetuating myths about his supposed unelectability, etc. She isn't actually saying anything particularly meaningful or worthwhile when she criticises him, she seems more focused on advancing her own profile via the media. I mean, she was an MP for like a year and had a book out. It's clear to me where her priorities lie. The media are of course much more receptive to someone like Phillips who will attack a left wing leader like Corbyn, than they were with Corbyn attacking Blair. Also, Blair was far more deserving of being attacked seeing as he is, y'know, a war criminal.

    Regardless of if she's just being "honest", comments like this aren't helpful and do damage to the party. In that article she also exacerbates the confusion the BBC caused over Corbyn's stance on shoot-to-kill. IMO she's terrible.
     
  17. Letterbomb31

    Trusted Prestigious

    The worst thing about Phillips for me is when she told Diane Abbott, the first black woman ever elected to Parliament, to "fuck off".
     
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  18. Jamie Dagg

    Master of not knowing what the hell I'm doing.

    In that example I'm with Phillips, honestly. I think questioning a lack of female representation is a noble cause and one Corbyn would absolutely want to champion himself. Diane Abbott is doing great things as well but criticism in this case is justified, at least to me.
    I take the other criticism against her, though. The way she goes about making her criticism known isn't exactly substantive enough to be helpful in a lot of cases, but I appreciate her lack of filter on her perspective- it feels quite human to me. I just think in the example of Peston it's being spun to show dissent in the party where that really isn't what it was, at all.
     
  19. Letterbomb31

    Trusted Prestigious

    Corbyn's first shadow cabinet was 16 women and 15 men, I don't think that's a lack of female representation. There were more women in shadow ministerial posts than ever before. Also, Diane Abbott is now the shadow home secretary so the whole "top four jobs" thing has since been resolved somewhat.
     
  20. Jamie Dagg

    Master of not knowing what the hell I'm doing.

    Yeah that's definitely rectified now, especially with Thornberry as Foreign Sec too. I can just understand the criticism where May was, at the time, Home Secretary and had been for a while and it just detracted from Labour's overall message to be fighting for better rights for women. But yeah, as I said, totally rectified now so it isn't an issue.
     
  21. Jamie Dagg

    Master of not knowing what the hell I'm doing.

    May has U-turned on the dementia tax policy. Probably a good thing for their manifesto and the country in general, but certainly throws their 'strong and stable' line into question and probably raises more questions about funding, which is great for Labour.
     
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  22. Letterbomb31 May 22, 2017
    (Last edited: May 22, 2017)
    Letterbomb31

    Trusted Prestigious

    It's a fair criticism but at the same time it's frustrating that the media ignored the fact that there were more women than men in the shadow cabinet just so that they could accuse Corbyn of sexism. Also, it's possible to make the argument against the four top jobs all being men without resorting to the despicable behaviour that Jess Phillips exhibited towards Diane Abbott.
     
  23. Letterbomb31 May 22, 2017
    (Last edited: May 22, 2017)
    Letterbomb31

    Trusted Prestigious

     
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  24. Jamie Dagg

    Master of not knowing what the hell I'm doing.

    We finally have some European news in this forum!
     
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  25. Letterbomb31 May 22, 2017
    (Last edited: May 22, 2017)
    Letterbomb31

    Trusted Prestigious

    Wharf Rat likes this.