True Detective (HBO) TV Show • Page 22

I think everything you're saying here is pretty true. For me I think a lot of it comes down to what Pizzolatto does so well and what his weaknesses in my mind are. Like I wish he would have brought in David Milch to help with the writing of the entire season, like the overall story arc being told, versus just coming in to help write one episode. If I recall correctly, two other writers (aside from Pizzolatto) helped write one episode each, Milch and someone else.

 

There’s a huge difference between having clues or mysteries in your story and intentionally distracting and manipulating your audience to follow something that has nothing to do with the story. If they want to tell a story where the mystery truly doesn’t matter, there’s no need to present a ton of information the way they have. They can just leave that stuff out.

 

Wow I said story a lot there. Whoops.

 

I mean, sure, they could leave it out. But maybe part of the story they wanted to tell was how convoluted life is orhow many rabbit holes there are in being a detective, etc...

To me, watching a mystery where they don't introduce anything other than people or places or items that 100% have something to do with the finality of the story seems cookie cutter and boring. Like, what's the point of the mystery if we see everything on screen and are just waiting for it to be tied together. It can be interesting and revealing to face defeat and disappointment.

 

I'm imaging Zodiac but with all non-crucial informational scenes removed and it would be half as long and nowhere near as interesting as it is now. You know what I mean?

 

Right, but I’m talking about what they are showing to the audience and teasing, not what the characters are going through.

There are so many shows where we never get every answer and it doesn’t matter because the whole piece handles that naturally, but just throwing every single red herring you can into a blender and having it mean nothing isn’t making a point about the disappointment of investigation or existence or whatever, it’s just bad writing.

They have put in soooo much that isn’t even seen from the POV of the detectives but just meant to make the audience go, “Ooooh, I wonder if they are involved!” and if the mystery DOESN’T matter, then neither do those threads.

I just keep thinking about how someone like Elisa has literally no story outside of being exposition for Hays and how her character could have been a posterboard telling him about the case and nothing would be different. Instead of having another random scene that leads nowhere we could have developed her character, but because no one outside of Hays and Roland seem to matter, we get more twists and cliffhangers instead of that development.

 

Honestly, I've been rationalizing in my head that maybe the way they have been presenting information all season is structurally tied in to Hays' dementia, like he could be sitting with his son and know who he is but have forgotten that he is also a detective in that moment. So when we first find out as the audience we go "oh hey" sorta mirroring how he would react to relearning things he had known at one point but may have forgotten.

 

See, the more I think about Elisa and her role in the overall story the more I find it an interesting hook to hang the entire story on. We see Hays as an old man who, on the surface, can't remember things clearly but there are hints here and there that he's purposefully not telling her the whole truth for one reason or another. We can agree to disagree if you find that interesting or not, but I think we could agree that that is better a posterboard or something similar.

 

Zodiac is actually a great example of something handling this kind of story in a totally different and satisfying way. We know going into it that Zodiac defeats them, but we follow them down rabbit holes and keep hoping because of how compelling it is. The people in that movie are in the same boat as the audience, and we watch them grow and change and lose that hope because of actual events, not storytelling tricks and traps.

 

Zodiac is a damn masterpiece.

 

Even the idea of an unreliable narrator is more interesting to me in general. But then again I like the feeling of being tricked by a movie or show.

 

I don’t mind her relationship with Hays, I mind that she ONLY matters in relation to him. It’s the same with all the women, really, and a massive problem with the show in general.

Becca’s status doesn’t matter because we feel for her and want to know, it matters because if she’s dead that’s sad for Wayne. Amelia’s death isn’t a mystery worth solving because she was a full character who we know faces a tragic end, it’s just part of why Wayne has locked himself off. Elisa’s relationship with Henry isn’t explored as a difficulty for reconciling her professional and personal lives, it’s just an excuse to have a father son chat. Lucy died off screen and it’s barely discussed. Even Julie being alive or dead doesn’t matter for her personally, only from the standpoint of the guys solving the case or not.

That’s slightly off topic from the discussion, but it’s why I find the “mysteries” so frustrating. There is so much potential for strong characters here, but we never get to dive into them. Take out all the bait about who did it and major conspiracies and we could have had a really incredible personal drama, or stop saying that the people are all that matter and go fully into a puzzle that is worth solving. Trying to have it both ways is a letdown.

 

If it’s done well it can be incredibly satisfying. If his memory of events is more closely tied to what we see than we have been led to believe, it can forgive a WORLD of sins for the show. I don’t know why NP seems to think that an unreliable narrator is the same as it all being a dream or not real or something.

 

Was this season good y'all? Is it over yet? I'm lazy.

 

Ask again on Monday! Lol. It has one episode left. It’s probably worth watching but there’s still a lot left up in the air. If you’re in a lazy mood I might wait to start it though, because it is very slowly paced and might not drag you out of that feeling.

 

I haven't seen the second season, but I don't think the first season had that "being a dream or not real" kind of conclusion or vibe and as far as this season, that kind of feeling can be a direct correlation with empathizing with Hays' dementia and how frustrating and/or terrifying it can be.

I think this all comes down to what I had said recently in here that I don't really care too much about the conclusion and/or plot, but just the visceral feeling I get from watching is what keeps me coming back. It really isn't a big deal, haha, sometimes over analyzing shows can be futile, especially when they're not even done yet.

 

Oh no, I’m just still going back to that quote from NP that shut down the idea of an unreliable narrator so completely. He said in there that they weren’t “tricking the audience” or something, and an unreliable narrator doesn’t have to mean some massive twist to still be involved. His memory is so much a part of the story that the creator going, “Nope, it’s all real, it’s all exactly as we portray it,” takes out a powerful idea to explore. The other quote about Hays was much more compelling, and I hope it is closer to the truth.

 

Well damn, I didn't realize that he actually said that and wish I didn't read it, haha no worries though.

That's another thing I'm not a fan of is when the creators are way too accessible and talky when the show is still going. He should just let the show speak for itself instead of commenting on everything.

 

I think half of my dislike for the show comes from how NP handles himself. I really do not like anything about his vibe. He’s actually been shutting down basically every fan theory directly and it’s just like dude, come on. If you don’t want people to make guesses, write a different show.

 

I imagine he's a little defensive after how season 2 was received, but there's also no need to directly refute stuff that people are theorizing. He seemed to take some of the actual criticism for the second season to heart, though, so maybe he'll dial back how much he discloses while the show is still airing if he does a fourth season.

 

That might explain why his daughter is estranged. Maybe the daughter figured out her mom died prematurely because of what Hays did and cut him out of her life.

 

Having the mis-direction stuff makes it feel more like I'm part of the investigation team personally. It feels more "real life" in the sense that I'm actively thinking about different directions the case can actually go. If we were just being fed the stuff that mattered it would be like we were watching CSI or one of those other lame network crime dramas.

 

I’m not asking to be fed. I’m saying that there’s a difference between having a fleshed out story that could go different ways and having long, lingering shots meant to make you suspect certain people and then going, “Lol no, stupid audience, none of this matters.”

I feel like I’m somehow not making my specific position clear and now it’s just getting back to the first thing I said was frustrating this morning, lol.

 

Like I’m all for stories that do exactly that and make you feel like you’re involved, but NP seems hell bent on undoing all of that value by acting like no theory matters and the case doesn’t matter and blah blah blah. That worked ok in the first season because we DID get most of the answers and Rust’s whole outlook on life was super nihilistic and weird and sad so it all being kind of beside the point was fine.

This story doesn’t have that same theme or structure, so it makes no sense to keep leading the audience down paths and then acting like we’re idiots for wanting things to be connected or meaningful. It’s just bait and switch that stretches out the story without adding anything for the characters or for us. The idea of a man losing himself and his memories and trying to piece it together is beautiful and works really well, and if NP thinks theories are worthless he could have just focused on Hays completely and how he perceives/remembers it.

It almost could have been something like Columbo, where the end is a foregone conclusion but we still have no idea how we get there or how the main character is able to figure it out/deal with it. Even if the audience knew who took Julie or why Will died we still would be able to identify with Wayne and his quest to find himself in all of this, and we could have saved time on the secondary mysteries that apparently don’t matter at all.

 

I wonder how much more you'd enjoy the show if you didn't listen or read any of the extra curricular bad shit NP says in interviews and whatnot, haha