Tool - Fear Inoculum (August 30, 2019) Album • Page 10

No one is trying to have a discussion. Nobody does on this website. They just tell you you're a rape apologist if you say anything other than "kill this guy as soon as possible" when an allegation comes up.

I'm here for a discussion if you wanna have one, but nobody in here is having one.

 

None of this happened. But okay.

 

well I for one am convinced.

 

mate, scroll up

 

Imagine reading all those posts from k0ta and thinking that somehow she isn’t trying to educate you and explain to you how harmful this shit is.

 

I don’t think you know how to read

 

It all comes down to a simple calculus.

It will be the rare occurrence where an allegation of abuse comes from a named, unassailable source, which is corroborated by unimpeachable contemporaneous evidence, resulting in a confession.

That means that, from here on out, we are going to be confronted with most allegations of abuse coming from anonymous sources or hearsay etc. That's because the cost of coming forward is still insanely high and the individual benefit is virtually nonexistent.

We also know that abuse is an epidemic. And that abuse has a significant power dynamic. And that musicians, especially successful ones, are often in an unbalanced position of power.

Acknowledging these facts, how do we proceed?

One approach is to withhold judgment, behave as usual until it becomes clear that this is the rare occurrence with near perfect corroboration. The risk, obviously, is that you have supported an abuser, you have enabled an abuser, and you have made the life of a survivor that much worse.

The other approach is to believe the accusation until it becomes clear that the allegation is not true. Withdraw financial and public support of the band. Maybe you still listen in private, maybe you don't. The sacrifice is that you can't chat on message boards about a band you were hyped about and its entirely possible that you will never know, with certainty, whether it was justified. The numbers might be strongly in your favor, but its unlikely there will ever be a smoking gun.

That decision is really simple for me. There are a lot of other things I love that I can talk about publicly and support financially that won't put me in the position of possibly defending an abuser.

 

she quoted the first post i made and called me a tool, then said the program i ignore the survivors of assault. i didnt get much of an education,

 

Pretty sure other people in the Tool subreddit have posted stories about MJK having his entourage try to lure women to him, if they had boyfriends they had to come alone.

If it smells like a rat, it's a rat in this deal for me.

 

The discussion is that you are terrible and your life must be bad because of it. If your life isn't bad, then of course you listen to Thrice or something.

This real discussion was actually already had in the Tool Thread months ago, that's why I'm not taking this seriously. I suggest you don't either. These users trip over themselves to pile on and get one over on people even if you don't try very hard. Getting the last word in is very important to them.

 

Yes, this is the fake discussion and isn’t serious at all

 

Imagine seeing Mary's post and thinking this lol, you truly just don't want to hear anything other than validation for your opinions and so you're choosing to ignore all of the actual discussion going on in order to bring us to the final form of allegation discussions, which is when the people who were defending the abusers claim they've been unfairly persecuted/nobody did anything but hurl insults at them so that they don't have to do the actual work of engaging with the discourse.

 

For the record, @OhTheWater came in here looking to start a discussion and @Davjs dismissed and mocked it. That’s the guy you’re siding with. The one that refuses to have a discussion that isn’t just “lololol sjws”.

 

It’s honestly incredible that both of them still refuse to acknowledge Mary’s post because that would require too much self reflection and critical thinking on their part.

 

I read Mary's post and I agree with every word.

 

And if you all agree with Mary's post, let's get Jason to shut the thread down, because we should not be discussing this band on this website.

 

Tool was my favorite band for 15+ years. Even at the height of my fandom, I always knew Maynard was an asshole. Now he's an asshole and a rapist. That makes not listening to this band and not supporting an easy choice for myself.

I tend to believe victims rather than the perpetrator and I would hope that others do as well. It was the same thing for Brand New. Easiest choice in the world.

 

i tried to have a discussion but not a single person replied to any of my posts. seems like theres one side here not having a discussion and just whining

 

You are moving the goalposts. The bar you need to clear in order to not be a rape apologist is to simply stop apologizing for rapists. No one here has advocated for anyone's death or demanded that others do the same.

You wrote an entire post talking about gray areas in response to someone making an explicit allegation of abuse. You have chosen to discount it because it was anonymous, knowing full well that if the accuser had put her name on it, she would have been subject to vitriol beyond comprehension. Your bar is "subject yourself to a horrific crucible or be ignored."

That system benefits only one class of people: abusers. Because who but the absolute bravest among us would subject themselves to that? As a result, a vast majority do not come forward.

Insisting on that system is what made you an apologist. But the good news is that it isn't a permanent state of being! It is a choice.

You want to continue to withhold judgment, insist on a system benefiting the perpetrators and not the survivors, and continue to publicly and financially support the band...that is certainly a choice! But, fair warning, you will be held accountable for that choice on this website.

It is as simple as that. I'm comfortable accounting for the choice that I have made. Whatever choice you decide to make, I hope you are similarly comfortable accounting for it.

 

It’s wild that my posts directly linking to some questionable shit re: the anonymous accusation and asking fans if they have any more information that could be used to dismiss them is being chalked up as me telling everyone they’re rapists for listening to Tool

 

I could also go into all of the shit I do outside of this website with my students and the community but that would just make it seem like I’m desperate to not look like a rape apologist

 

Hey, I'd love to have a discussion about this. Seriously.

I agree with everything you're saying. If the person had put their name to it I think this entire thing changes but I also understand the vitriol that would've come from doing that, especially with a rabid fan base like Tool's. I understand that the shame and--worse--fear is why survivors do not come forward.

I would never expect a survivor to come forward and just slap their name on the internet so people like me would believe them. My only feelings on this SPECIFIC matter (not all #metoo instances or other issues within the scene) is that when this happens it was reported by one anonymous series of tweets. This person had the opportunity to go to the press anonymously and didn't. Nobody reported it. The bigger thing, to me anyway, is that those tweets were the only thing.

Do you remember when it came out? People were fired up. But not one other story about Maynard came forward. Stories were he's an asshole did (trying to sleep with women, etc) but being an asshole is not a criminal. The expectation was that there would be a pile of stories but there wasn't. A year later and that's it--just anonymous tweets.

I get Maynard doesn't need people like me defending him on the Internet and that's not what it's about. This is a personal decision for me. Based on everything I know about this situation, this is how I feel. Based on everything I knew about Brand New, Pinegrove, and With Confidence I felt differently. And ultimately I know some people are going to see my boot around this website and associate me with rape apologist and maybe that's fair. Nobody yelling at me is going to change my mind.

I think the thing here is that, I understand everything eveyone is saying. I just don't agree with every single point. One person was back there randomly bashing cops. I vehemently disagree--my uncle was one, and did more to help people than anyone I know. I'm actually offended someone is in this thread bashing police, because 99.99% of them are trying to help citizens. But I digress. Just like I will never be able to convince any of you I'm not a rape apologist--I could say right now I'm done with the band and agree with you all, but you'll still think I'm an apologist--I will continue to agree to disagree. This does not mean I side with abusers. This means in this specific instance I am viewing it as siding with an asshole, not an abuser. If anything were to come out to further point towards him being an abuser I will happily reconsider my viewpoint.

 

There are multiple tweets linked in the Accountability thread referencing MJK doing the same thing. Active twitter accounts with names

 

i sincerely hope they don’t take what you say seriously considering you have a massively flawed viewpoint on this subject. seriously. i hope they seek education on the topic elsewhere. fingers crossed!

 

I don't frequent that thread, can you send them to me? I can go find them myself if they're on the last few pages but there's a lot of pages there haha