The Christian Music Thread Genre • Page 7

Had Chad used the f-word in the crescendo it would have been not only given needless power to the word but it also would have put a word expressing personal depravity in Jesus's mouth, which would have indeed been wrong. I also think our judgment concerning this song should be based in something deeper than the surreal feeling of a Christian worship band having an explicit label on the album cover and using an explicit word. Like I said, there could very well be a biblical reason his use of the word was wrong. But so far, I think the attitudes of those in opposition have been far more unbiblical.

And maybe that's the issue with them using the word--that it unnecessarily incites the anger of Christians who may or may not be thinking biblically on this issue. But I personally am thankful someone has written a song expressing those dark prayers and injecting Gospel truth in them. It's a help to me rather than a hindrance.

Edit: Last thing and I'm done. I don't believe you have to use a certain four letter word to accurately express terror and personal depravity and I doubt that I personally will find it necessary in my writings. But I think this song is a unique case where the use of profanity works to help bring home the Gospel message behind the song. I never thought I'd say that before I found myself in the same state Chad finds himself in. Also, I think too much honesty is a better thing than the artificiality that is present in so much Christian art, so there's that.

 

totally agree with @Lucas27. I didn't know how I felt about it until I got to the second half kicks in, and it all clicked for me.

on the "edgy" BadChristian vibe, I honestly don't think that is what anyone involved there is going for. It wasn't until I listened to one of the most recent BC podcasts, where Matt talks about interviewing with Moody's radio station (which I still need to look up and listen to), that I really understood their point of view. His point was basically that a lot of Christians use much more offensive/crude language when they talk about people and issues they don't agree with, especially on things like Facebook, than when he chooses to say "shit," or drop an f-bomb.

 

I don't mean necessarily the crescendo of THAT song, just the crescendo of A song.

Like, I don't live in a bubble. I know what natural swearing sounds like. It doesn't sound like that. It's so out of place that a ministry friend of mine literally laughed out loud when he heard it. Another ministry friend of mine, one who doesn't have a problem dropping that good ol' "f-bomb" in select contexts with select people, said she thought it was completely ridiculous, too. It's so incredibly try-hard, attention-seeking, unwise, and lame.

Language doesn't make things "mature" or "real." Jessica Jones avoided that word out of necessity, and while using it would have been more realistic for the characters and setting, doing so would have added literally no depth or impact. Meanwhile, I've seen childish memes with language that just made it seem even more juvenile.

Even though I suspect the band does swear in normal conversation, the usage here felt very:


And, I've thought that the Emery guys were idiots for a while now. I listened to exactly one BC podcast, one with Gungor after one of those controversies about their beliefs, and while Michael and Lisa felt very sincere, the Emery guys were very clearly fishing for controversy. Years ago, their video about, funny enough, swearing also felt really childish. I'm comfortable not caring about their opinions on anything at this point.

 

I'm not an advocate for swearing. I don't think swearing adds to anything or makes anything more real. But sometimes reality causes us to express the brokenness of our souls in a way that is on the surface vulgar, whether that's swearing or beating our chests or whatever. And you say it's not natural swearing, and disregard the authenticity of it, but I just said this very song has been the cry of my heart before. You disagree with their use of it and I completely get it, but I don't see how you could know the story behind it and call it attention-seeking and childish.

 

I dunno, I have no problem with swearing in music or life, but I do agree this sounds kind of forced. I understand where he's coming from with regards to anxiety and how it's crushing and stuff, but I don't think the f word really worked in the song to help communicate that. Plus it's weird cause they are pretty much a worship band.

 

I don't have enough an attachment to swearing to sit and argue in its defense. But regardless of our agreement or disagreement on the actual use, I just think we need to refrain from judging the intentions behind it. Maybe it wasn't the best choice of words, but I have no doubt after hearing Chad's explanation that it was at least sincere. My issue isn't that people have a problem with the swearing itself. My problem is that so many Christians are so focused on the outward appearance that they can't even empathize with Chad's use of it and call him fake for using it when it came straight from the man's journal.

 

I think we can empathize with the guy and still think it sounds dumb.

 

We can just agree to disagree. #clichestatementsmadetoendarguments

At the very least I think we can all agree that Tim's Spongebob meme is the bee's knees.

 

I really enjoyed Skillet growing up. If I found them now 10 years later, I might feel differently and I don't listen to new releases at all, but I smile and enjoy it if I ever hear someone playing something off of Comatose at a church event.

 

And I'm pretty indifferent on "A Prayer". I'm not offended by the language choice in the song, but it doesn't really add anything for me either to use the f-bomb instead of whatever he says in the clean version. I agree with whoever said the delivery is kind of distracting.

I do really appreciate that they make a conscious effort to bring personal emotion into the music though. Even if some attempts (like in "A Prayer") don't directly land with everyone, there's too many times I listen to worship music and I feel detached from the emotions the songwriter is conveying, and I think they do a great job of avoiding that.

 

I don't mind it in "A Prayer". I don't think it adds much to the song and does sound a little out of place. With a band like Mumford and Sons it comes across as normal, like that's just how they talk. And it doesn't feel that way here.

With that being said, it doesn't ruin the song for me and I love the feel of that track.

 

I think it's also pretty clear that with this album they are no longer a "worship band." yes, that's what Kings Kaleidoscope started out as, and the last album was full of leftovers from their time at Mars Hill, but this album has a lot more than just worship songs.

 

It's taken me time to change my mindset about the new album because it is very different than a worship album (because it really isn't in any traditional sense).

 

Listening to A Prayer now, this song is really really good. It feels weird to me to be debating someone else's writing though, especially in this case where it is very personal writing that I imagine was difficult to actually put out there. I don't think the song is any less Christian because of a swear word or anything.

 

I find it immature and disappointing, but that's what I've grown to expect out of anything with the BadChristian label on it. I mean, it's the same with any Christian who uses swear words though. I don't think it's inherently evil or heretical when someone does it, but I think it shows a lack a maturity in their faith. Scripture speaks plenty of times to the power and importance of the words we use - Eph 4:29, Col 3:8, James 1:26, Psalm 141:3, Luke 6:45 etc and if a culture deems a word a "curse" or "swear" word, then we should work towards avoiding such language.

The whole "honesty" thing confuses me too, because if you need to rely on words that obviously are polarizing in order to get your point across, then I think you're being honest for culture's sake, and not for God's sake, which is again, not our calling.

I think it's a solid album that I'll listen to for a while, but I won't be able to take "A Prayer" seriously I guess.

 

See, this kind of thing is why I generally avoid religious circles. I figured a music thread would just be nostalgic for me seeing as I was big into Tooth & Nail and other bands in the Christian scene like that.

I read all of those verses, and like many things in the bible they are vague. Generally I interpret these as truly wrong talk. Talking to bring others down, slurs that create stigmas and bring whole groups of humanity down. There is no harm done in saying "shit", it's just a word our culture decided was "worse" than others. Even going through different English speaking places you'll find the "worse" words to be different. A swear word is only as bad as you allow it to be. And if you allow it to be bad to the point where you can't take something seriously (especially something as emotionally raw and serious as this song), then I'd call that immaturity on your part, not the writers.

I relate to the song a lot, it's a song written about his fear and anxiety due to a panic disorder (which I also have, along with my OCD) and his struggle with faith throughout it. It's something incredibly serious, and kind of hell to live with. I find it just incredibly sad that someone can put what is one of the darkest and most painful aspects of my life (so I imagine his too) out there and there are people who can't "take "A Prayer" seriously".

I don't care if you or anyone personally chooses not to "swear", but if you act above it or judge others for it, then there's a problem there. Your religion and your theologies are not perfect, it's all based off of a book full of homophobia and misogyny and often vague verses that can be interpreted in many ways. People are going to view it differently than you.

Ugh, another thread made awful. Imma unfollow now. Thanks for chatting about music and not theology with me a little bit up in here though, to those who did. Fun nostalgia trip.

 

Hi Benjamin,

First of all, I would encourage you not to leave a thread or discussion just because one person said something that rubs you the wrong way. There's a lot of great people in this thread and a lot of great music that's discussed in this thread. I think though, if you're coming into a thread called "Christian Music" and you think that the theology of the music isn't going to be discussed, you're a bit naive. These are discussions that are of the utmost importance because everything we do or say or listen to becomes acts of worship in one light or another, if you're a professing Christian.

Second of all, I absolutely reserve the right to hold brother's and sisters to the same faith that we profess. There's this absurd notion that we're not allowed to call anything out as "wrong" because somehow we'd be "judging". I have no issue with another believer telling me I'm wrong for something I've said or taught and then showing me where in God's word I was wrong. In fact, I welcome and hope that my brother's and sister's would do that. I think though, you're missing the subtly irony that in your defense of me "judging" a band based on the use of their words, that you made a post that had the exact same tone that you were somehow arguing against. I can only hope that going forward we're allowed the opportunity to discuss what we believe freely and disagree in a way that's loving and gracious.

Third of all, the idea that a a swear word is only as bad as you make it is silly, because a swear word is only as bad as the culture makes it. There's a large difference, and I think I noted that in my original post. If you live in an area where dropping an f-bomb isn't an issue, then by all means go for it. For myself personally though, I'd much rather avoid dissension in any culture in my language, especially if I'm a recording artist putting out an album that will span across multiple cultures.

My last point will be this. I'm genuinely glad that you're moved by this song and it speaks to you. There's been plenty of songs with swear words that have made a huge impact on my life in the past, granted most of them were in my angry teen years. I'm of the personal conviction though, that as a Christian group, and a worship group at that, that they could have made the same impact on you without the use of the word.

 

I'm not sure how this conversation went the way that it did...

Talking about the wisdom of a popular Christian band, one that was very recently considered a "worship band" (which has its own built in standards) using very strong language in a song is very different from judging anyone who talks a way "we" don't like. If you've seen any of my posts elsewhere on the site, you'd know those accusations leveled against this thread don't apply to me, and I've been probably the driving force in criticizing their decision.

In terms of Chad writing that line in his journal at a hard time or whatever the deal is, that gives the conversation only the slightest change. If being an outpouring of emotion justifies all things, the people who criticize Christian radio should shut up because I guarantee a lot of those boring singles were born out of similar circumstances that are no less "real" or "sincere" because they don't use certain words. Also, I've written strong language in journals at hard times before. That doesn't mean those rants necessarily make good songs.

The band knew what they were doing. The Bad Christian dudes knew what they were doing. It's not a decision that will damn their souls. It's not a good decision. And to reiterate: One of my closest friends uses language that strong in select contexts (mostly when venting about injustice or other emotionally intense situations while not in public), and she agreed that it sounded stupid and forced. And another friend literally laughed out loud at it.

If it impacts you, cool. I once was emotionally moved by an episode of Wizards of Waverly Place, so I can't be mad at that. If it doesn't impact you but also doesn't bother you, cool. We're in a global setting, and different countries may have different norms. I'm fine with considering it more of a wisdom matter than a moral one (though if any unjust rebellion fueled the release, those with that issue will have to deal with it between them and God).

I'm sorry if the criticism reminded you of terrible people you've dealt with. I'm sorry if it could have been worded better. But, I'm not sorry for the actual criticism itself. I'm fine with learning to discuss better, but the discussion itself is not bad.

 

I think that's pretty well said @Tim and sums up how I feel.

 

Not sure if you're referring at all to my post in your paragraph #2, but I agree with what you're saying. Cursing <> showing emotion in songwriting. Taking words from a journal entry <> conveying the emotion of the words on the page in song form.

But, through the musical arrangement of the song, the raw lyrics (curse words aside), use of silence to move the song forward, etc, I think they do a remarkable job of conveying their personal emotion in "A Prayer" (and throughout the album as a whole). I don't personally find that as much in a lot of contemporary Christian radio music (although others might). To compare that to watching a Disney show is kinda odd IMO.

 

You're not going to find it on CCM, but where in the secular world are you going to find music/lyrics in the same vein of a secular top 40's station?

 

That's true, but I also don't worship to Drake at church every Sunday, so it's a little bit different!

I definitely don't want to start trashing CCM though, because that wasn't the point of that post at all. I'm just saying I think KK did a very good job of emotionally connecting.

 

Eh. Don't leave the thread man because this conversation turned this way. In Chrisian music, the lyrical content is what makes the genre the genre. So in a thread like this, the lyrics will be discussed (like they are in many music threads). But it's just with Christian stuff there is usually more charged behind the scenes with all of us (feelings about the Church, experiences with family, disagreements with scriptures, etc). So yeah, the conversation went this way, because I think that's how it might go sometimes. A prominent Christian band wrote lyrics that are primarily seen as "not-Chrisitian" so it'll be discussed, and that discussion might go along with the frame of reference many Christians use (the Bible).

I hope you're still willing and able to return to the discussion when it turns to something you want to discussed. I actually appreciate how the discussion has gone without anyone interjecting the typical ignorance and condescending the way Christian topics were usually discussed at AP.net.

 

Please indulge my soapbox rant...

You know what the issue is with so many of us in the church? We're so intent on correcting and proclaiming our rightness instead of being willing to meet other people in their own filth. Even more, we tell people that they should have never gotten there in the first place (or never mention it) because it's vulgar. So we cultivate this culture where nobody talks about anything for fear of falling short and looking like they don't have everything together. But the whole point about the Gospel is that we don't have everything together. We don't have anything together. So we should be able to pour out everything from the depths of our hearts--privately and publicly--with the assurance that we'll get empathy instead of condemnation.

I've struggled with so many things privately because I know that people around me would freak out and condemn me for the things I've struggled with. I had to find a couple of close Christian friends who would first be willing to indulge the darkness in my heart and listen to me and give me a freakin' hug. That love that met me where I was ended up being the first step to recovery in my personal struggles. It gave me hope that I wasn't bound to my struggles, and then their constant encouragement since then to put off the darkness and put on Christ in all things has been pivotal. But I couldn't have even gotten to that point had they not descended and met me where I was no matter how foolish it was that I was there in the first place. That's what the Gospel is.

I think Benjamin and many others who are straying away from the church are confused about what's in the Bible because we don't know how to apply its truths. Like, oil is essential for your car, but if you put it in the gas tank you're going to wind up with more issues than you had to begin with. There are still verses in the Bible I don't understand, but the more I learn about Scripture and how to apply it, the more I realize how cohesive everything is. And it's so freeing. I think people like Matt and Toby at BC can take it too far by excusing themselves to speak in ways that aren't necessarily edifying, but their understanding of the Gospel is still better to me than people in super conservative Christian circles where everything is swept under the rug.

If you actually empathized with Chad you wouldn't dismiss the wording in "A Prayer" as dumb. And if you empathized with Benjamin's alienation from the church you would know it's not edifying to keep pleading your case as to why you're allowed to judge Chad's decision to swear in a song. And you wouldn't reply to Benjamin's being moved by the song by saying, "I was once moved by an episode of Wizards of Waverly Place." I'm not concerned about how right your statements are. I just think that the way your stating these things completely negates anything that could be right about them. And I'm not trying to make empathy a god in itself, but since the cross of Jesus Christ is the epitome of empathy, I don't see why Christians are so lacking in that area. It's no wonder people are leaving the church left and right.

I'm not the king in this area either, and I'm not assuming you guys are terrible empathizers. Everything wrong is kind of blown up in the online world because we can't express actual emotions through a keyboard. And I'm basically typing these things to myself too. I really hope I'm not opening up a can of worms with another long-winded post, especially after basically exiting the conversation and I have absolutely no animosity towards anyone in this thread. I just think if people like Benjamin are coming into this thread feeling uneasy, there's something wrong.

 

I meant nothing ill towards anyone. I'm back and forth with religion, but my basic life theology is to just be good and supportive to people. The Bible and many Christians make that hard, which isn't a jab at anyone here. But the animosity towards the LGBT community, the roles put on women, and the civil war within the religion itself makes for a mess that I've spent too much time involved in. It tore my life apart, so I'm sorry if I seem overly harsh or anything. I tried not to be.

My main point is, the religion does create this civil war. This war where if someone so much as says a word people don't like they disregard the entirety of the issue they present. This guy (I don't really know this band, outside of that one song) put himself out there in a very vulnerable way, and instead of people supporting him in his disorder and his openness, they decided to go after and disregard him. And that's just not okay.

I don't know. Sorry I melted down a little. Haha I'd love to talk music still.