Swans - The Glowing Man (June 17, 2016) Album • Page 5

Again: why are you equating situations that are not the same?

 

Man, what a thing to go to bat for.

 

that post is a direct answer to this statement:

 

seriously, the fact that he's defending this so much rather than just letting it be at this point...stunning

 

Perseverance! :D

(you can always just not read this thread or block me or whatever)

 

but not reading or blocking you is ignoring a very important and delicate issue. its just becoming more and more creepy the lengths youre willing to go to defend this.

 

Shut the fuck up lol Gira is a rapist he admits it himself you're being an annoying disingenuous POS

 

There is no reason to defend the Art made by men who self admit to being rapists!!!!

 

I can't think of many threads less needing that fucking smiley face than this one, but cool, you stick to your guns, you're the one with the airtight argument.

 

ok, so I've been censored by a moderator for I'm not sure (the message I got just said "stop")

I'm out - thank you for participating in this, all who did

 

"Censored"

 

I mean pirate this album if you want sure. It's certainly not supporting him if you are privately listening to an illegally downloaded album I suppose. I did not pay for the new Kanye or Nothing albums because I'm not comfortable with the stuff they've been saying, but I enjoy their music. No harm no foul. This dude is a legitimate rapist though, that's a whole other ballpark. Some people can separate art from the artist better than others. That's a very hard thing for me to listen to and not have in the back of my head

Also putting illegal downloading and rape on the same level is the definition of obtuse

 

One of the things we discussed as moderators is that we need threads like this because people are going to talk about the music no matter what. We're glad, for the most part, that the issues were discussed with a degree of civility. The issue regarding theft was... weird. There was a clear misunderstanding on theft of purchased/owned content and how that is different than theft of created content, which is a distinction many people have made in the wake of the rise of illegal downloading for a decade and the devaluation of art. Which is not the discussion point of this thread.

But now that this has been mentioned and discussed at length, this thread is still going to exist for a place for people to discuss this album. It's clearly going to be listened to by people and people are going to want to talk about it. Swans is a popular band with a career spanning like thirty years. They have fans. They don't need to be reminded every time they post that he's a rapist. It's been clearly made known in the thread. If the conversation constantly returns to it, frustration will just rise for everyone and more fruitless contention will rise.

Personally, I don't listen to this band and learning that a member is a rapist will not listen to this band, but I'm not gonna lend to creating an unsafe place for people to talk about music on a music forum. Every listener has their personal moral compass, and I'm more than aware they don't all line-up ever. It's a tension we all deal with hourly on this site.

So if your moral compass is more similar to mine and you won't be listening to this album, don't belittle or attack those who chose to listen to this album. Hopefully, they've thought through their actions, even if their conclusion is different than ours. If your moral compass is such that you loathe Gira (as I assume everyone feels towards rapists), but you're still interested in the music he's helped create - wrestle with if you want to monetarily support him or illegally listen to it, but know you have a place to discuss it. If your moral compass is such that you don't have a problem with Gira, that is an entirely different matter and I highly recommend some time being spent in becoming educated on the horrors of rape, rape culture, and the like.

 

I don't think creating and maintaining a "safe space" for the art of a rapist should really be the priority here.

 

So what would you have us, the moderators and @Jason Tate, do? Delete every thread about people who have raped, are "problematic" (using it in quotes to cover all the major ways that artists can be in the wrong for the sake of brevity), or other? We're legit searching for the best way to do this. Have been since the Kanye drama blew up at the end of AP. And Kanye's comments about women are arguably on the other side of the same coin of sexual assault against women, so if we draw that line, can we as a site really completely quit discussing one of the biggest names in the music world? Can we really remove all discussion of these artists?

 

I don't even necessarily think the thread should be deleted but to more or less say people shouldn't post here about his rape because it makes it "unsafe" to discuss his music is absurd.

I also, again, think it is comical to compare a tweet with actual, literal rape.

 

I think this is the best way to do it and I appreciate the effort and thought behind this.

The reason I got all weird re: this was not SWANS. The reason was that attacking people who decide to come here and discuss something is scary. Not allowing freedom of speech is scary.

 

No one is impugning your freedom of speech and if they deleted the thread that wouldn't be either. You have the entire endless expanse of the Internet to talk about your favorite rapist. If they decided this site wasn't going to allow it, that's their right.

 

freedom of speech talk, peaceeeeee

 

That's not what I meant to infer at all. My meaning was that people shouldn't be attacked because they chose to listen to this. Gira is a rapist and that is something that should be known and talked about. It colors everything he does. But if someone wants to listen to this, they should experience no grief for doing so. And that was happening.

Verbal violence against women is still violence against women. I refuse to draw a line on an acceptable way to perpetuate violence against women. Yes, rape is a violent physical act and yes they're not similar. But violence against women is unacceptable, period. I adjusted how I approach Kanye because of that tweet because of how I view violence against women. Learning about Gira's violence against women has affected how I would ever approach his band.

This is/was my main concern with how this thread is going/went down. Gira deserves to be attacked for what he's done. People who listen to his art do not. Don't really think it's a freedom of speech issue.

 

What an insane post.

 

Two things can be bad without being equally bad, the implication a tweet is on par with rape is completely bonkers. You can have different measured responses to two very different things.

 

lol - you need to chill, this is dumb

people are going to talk about this, its a fact.

why is it so hard to understand that it doesn't mean supporting rape

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@Garrett L.

I mentioned freedom of speech because someone suggested deleting the thread even before the discussion started

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If people are going to talk about the album, then people are also going to talk about the fact the guy who made it is a rapist.

 

What exactly is insane about it? I'm legitimately trying to find the proper way for our community to move forward and discuss issues like these. I think I've been quite clear on the fact that I will not support a rapist. But this is just one of many artists who sadly have this in their world, and people are going to talk about their music/their histories. What's the proper balance of calling attention their hideous-side without attacking people who want to discuss their artistic side? A thread about them in the forums is not endorsing them and I'm pretty sure Jason has personally decided to never share news about artists like these.

Attack Gira all you want. He's a rapist who deserves no protection.

But what's wrong with saying attacking members for wanting to discuss his music is wrong, too?

Quite literally said "yes they're not similar" so nowhere was this implication made. But not only is it a tweet, but it's albums full of lyrics, too. Albums that I quite enjoy, but refuse to monetarily support him on because that's where my internal struggle with it has landed for now. And it may change to not listening to him at all if it gets worse.