Spider-Man: No Way Home (Jon Watts, December 17, 2021) Movie • Page 53

The only truly interesting cross-film arc they had was when Tony and Steve fell out at the end of Civil War but then Steve gives Tony a phone and a message that says “don’t worry I still ly” and he shows up to help in Infinity War without going into the whole reason they were apart all that much.

 

We could share which character developments are interesting and which are not all night but the MCU still has character development for a handful of its characters. Most of which I’m satisfied with either in one film or over the process of a few films.

It’s more than I can get from the 2 Venom films.

 

If you honestly think Marvel Studios’ characters are allowed character development across films, I dunno what to tell you. They’re deep in the whole “illusion of progress” approach that the comics take, except it makes more sense for the comics ‘cause they’ve got a decades-long soap opera they’re not ending any time soon. The movies, with actors who age out, easily could’ve had compelling arcs, but almost every fake bit of progress is immediate undermined in the character’s next film anyways. What actual growth did Tony have in the end? None, unfortunately.

Which, if you wanna argue that’s not the point of those films, fine. But, let’s not pretend it’s there when it isn’t.

 

(That’s part of why Guardians 2 is easily my favorite, and why I strongly dislike Infinity War. The former had some really compelling character and theme stuff under the bright spectacle and lowbrow jokes, at least for the studio and genre. The latter, on the other hand, shat all over the Guardians films’ arc, as well as Ragnarok and others, just so some dull obligatory “plot” could throw the action figures together and pretend to be serious.)

 

I personally feel like Tony did have character growth but I also don't really want to take part in this conversation because discussions like these depress the fuck out of me, so I kinda just want to drop my opinion here and check out. Is that okay?

 

TBF, Tony isn't the one that calls him in Infinity War and Cap never sees him in that movie.

But also that's always who Steve was. He knew he ultimately was in the wrong for keeping it from Tony and wasn't going to hold a grudge about it, especially if the world needing saving.

 

Also I'm not not even a huge MCU/Iron man fan, but even I've seen enough of these movies to know Tony definitely isn't the same dude by Endgame as he was in Iron Man 1.

 

1000%

it's wild how much people are breathlessly arguing for the character development in a universe that has repeatedly told them, for better or worse, it isn't interested in that

 

i would argue tony does eventually have growth in endgame but he's the same character from IM1 through to IW. the amount of change they give the character in the one movie gives you whiplash considering how static he had been for a decade.

 

Yeah it's hard for me to think of many examples of decent character development other than GOTG2. Hopefully Gunn keeps that going in the 3rd movie

 

Using GOTG2 is most definitely not it. That movie took everything bad about the first and turned it up to 11

 

I would argue the ending of Endgame is, at the end, about Tony learning to be selfless and Cap learning to be selfish. I can certainly see the “it took X movies to get there” but if I were arguing characters don’t grow I’d probably focus on other characters lol

 

I definitely dont' think Tony is the same the entire time until endgame. There's hints of a change in the first avengers and I think every movie after that he's much much different than what it was in IM 1 and 2 and parts of Avengers.

 

This forum is literally the only place where I've seen negativity towards GOTG2 lol. Makes zero sense to me to like the first one and not the second, but hey, to each their own.

 

Idc what anyone says. Tony’s arc in the MCU is great and is undoubtably one of the reasons for the success the MCU has had. I don’t necessarily watch the MCU for major character developments, though. I’d rather watch for the characters and universe be consistent, which they are.

 

All fair points from those that responded. I won’t sit here and say those issues that any of you have are not there, especially with the way Infinity War seems to toss a lot of arcs in the air, mostly, imo, for the sake of comic book mashups and for Endgame to have something to work with. I still enjoy a lot what they MCU has to offer with a handful of the Avengers.

Tony has already been discussed. Steve is one of my favorites, however, as his entire arc is a deconstruction of an image that he doesn’t fully believe in and it takes a lot of time in the modern day for him to realize it. He isn’t the hero (sorry Cap fans). He is a byproduct of his time when America carried itself as true warriors of justice and companionship. Steve has a heart of helping others, but his main obstacle is Peggy. His stars and stripes persona is just a tool to help him feel like he has something to show when he actually doesn’t know what he wants..other than to find his lost love.

He fights because he has nothing else going for him and over the course of his films + Endgame, he starts to realize that times have changed and if America no longer needs to pretend that its number one pursuit is saving the world, then he doesn’t either. He’ll end the fight and be back with Peggy as soon as the option is available.

Through his fallout with Shield, the UN, and other superheroes, he comes to terms with this because he sees how everything has merely been built up to serve agendas that were never there to serve the truth, just like his own persona of being Captain America. Perhaps that’s why he is a good leader for the group. He knows what to say and when to say it, whether or not it’s the reality he truly sees.

Thor’s journey is also quite satisfying but I feel like it hasn’t met its conclusion and we’re still in the process of him about to reach it. Hopefully with Love & Thunder. He certainly isn’t the same Thor from the first two films, or even from the beginning of Ragnorak.

 

I think part of the Iron Man problem was them trying to write endings for Robert Downey Jr. multiple times, in case he didn't sign on for more, and then throwing more money at him because he's Robert Downey Jr. It's hard to imagine his story ending (at least for a prolonged amount of time) with Iron Man 3 when six of their seven highest grossing movies star or costar him, and the eighth is essentially a spinoff of his films and sequel to a movie he was in. But, IM3 into Ultron was the beginning of his arc being a tire spinning out in mud, sinking deeper and deeper until all progress is rendered meaningless.

IM3 was a perfect finale... and then Ultron essentially ignored that, only to then give him a lesser version of the same ending. And, it also started the streak of Tony being kind of the bad guy, which contined into Civil War. That one at least tried to retroactively make the false stops make sense in a self-destructive addiction kinda way, but that scene just breaks any cool Iron Man moment afterwards because it's been established that this is all very unhealthy. But, hey, it doesn't matter 'cause that dialogue wasn't actually meant as a character moment; it was meant as an excuse to keep that popular invincible Avenger going! Homecoming certainly doesn't do anything with that, but it does take "Tony's the bad guy" even further by having him create the Vulture through capitalist bullshit. Then Infinity War comes along and ignores several character beats in several characters' movies, though it does miraculously hold out on Tony contacting Steve (which, he shouldn't even have the means after Civil War, but whatever). But, outside of that broken relationship, the actual character of Tony Stark in Infinity War is still the nebulously defined dude from the end of the first Avengers. Then, in Endgame, we get him retiring again, and coming out of retirement again, and willing to sacrifice himself against invading aliens again (though this time he doesn't survive). Then, after his body's in the ground, Far From Home somehow makes him responsible for the villain through capitalist bullshit again, and he's irresponsible with dangerous weapons again.

That this guy is one of Marvel Studios' successful arcs according to fans says all you need to know about how useless character arcs really are to the Marvel Studios machine.

 

Ouch. A knock out punch from a guy arguing against me haha. Well done.

 

At the risk of getting involved in this discussion, I think the reason I don't see Tony's storyline in the movies as being flawed is because of a few fundamental things I believe about real life: good intentions can lead to unforeseen consequences; people don't really change, they just become different versions of themselves; and life is full of "terrible writing". I've never questioned the story beats being discussed here because to me, they make logical sense.

 

The fascinating thing is that you and Tim are both right, just from different viewpoints. Tony does repeat a lot of his steps, but each time can be seen a slightly different in a very bittersweet truth of how hard it is for someone to detach themselves from their core nature. Whether or not the writers were self aware, I have no idea. I do think Tony kinda touches on this during his talk with Cap while Bucky is being turned by Zemo.

I can see it being obnoxious to some and interesting to others.

 

friend sent me this screenshot


also
spiderman tickets | eBay
filtered by ones that have already been sold

 

no its not okay to not participate in a discussion that you dont want to participate in

 

I kiiinda checked out a while ago

 

Why would someone buy a $15,000 ticket??? Are they getting a seat right next to Tom Holland or something? C'mon. Ebay should take down all listings of tickets that are requesting that much money.