Discussion in 'Politics Forum' started by Melody Bot, Mar 13, 2015.
Sexism/Feminism/Womanism Discussion Thread
What in the actual fuck.
Damn. Twitter is mean.
Kim took that in stride.
Over 160k retweets and loves. That's horrible.
What Bette said and what Chloe said are two different things. Bette was inappropriate and disrespectful, but I don't believe Chloe is doing the same. She's not slut shaming. Having a sex-negative view is not always automatically slut shaming or anti feminist. Admittedly I don't think it was OK of her to RT Bette and that's disappointing, but taking her own tweets aside, is what I want to talk about.
If I may for a second, I want to address a few things regarding sex negative feminism and slut shaming, that goes beyond this situation and isn't solely discussing Kim's choices.
Reading the majority of responses to Chloe's tweet are part of what I see as a major problem across the internet now - people shutting others down without mature or intelligent discourse. Literally, I see "boooo" "shut up" "please stop" "log out" "delete". Where's the mature response here? It's very quick and snappy and automatically ignores any deeper meaning to what she's stating. I can't imagine people over the age of 18 think these one word / one phrase replies of telling her to not even talk is the correct way of addressing the issue. Isn't telling her to not talk part of a larger problem as well? Should we really be telling another woman with another opinion, "log out" and "stop"? It's ok to disagree with her, but agreeing doesn't automatically mean you're shaming Kim or women in general. Again, not OK with Bette's tweet or the fact that Chloe RT'd it.
And the way Chloe phrased herself in her own tweets isn't automatically confrontational or aggressive. I think people need to realize there is some validity in what she's saying, because we live in a society where there is so much importance placed on sex and so much pressure on women to look good and even more so without clothes on.
Promoting healthy body positive attitudes and encouraging women to feel confident is incredibly important, but at the same time, the conversation shouldn't end up like this: "Kim is confident in her body, so you criticizing her posting this picture means you're sexist/slut shaming".
Remember there probably are women who feel bad or feel pressured by seeing so much sex and nudity surrounding them. They don't all want to have sex in the first place. Or they have and don't like it. Or have had bad experiences with it. It doesn't mean they're slut shaming when discussing this. It's something to think about.
Being sex-negative is not automatically contradictory to being body positive and anti slut shaming. It addresses these problems by discussing that while women should be able to wear what they want and that there should be no victim blaming, and it isn't their fault they get treated the way they do, women also shouldn't feel like they have to go the revealing route. That they don't have to like or want sex, don't have to engage in sex the way others do, and don't have to like how it's portrayed by the general public, along with the immediate shut down of any contrary opinion regarding it. Similarly, the massive conversation that ensues whenever we find out someone is a virgin is just so demoralizing and pathetic. I see headlines and front-page news whenever someone on the Bachelor/Bachelorette admits it, people suddenly becoming unattractive because of it. Heck, the generic typical anti-gamer insult is "you're a virgin living in your mom's basement" (And yes I understand that's typically directed towards men and gaming has its own issues, but the statement of someone not having had sex being a 'bad' or 'lesser' thing still applies here).
Take a read of these articles. While I may not agree with all of them in their entirety or some of the tones that may have been taken, they each address key areas here and there that could be something to think about.
Slut-Shaming Is Bad—But The Overreaction Against It Also Hurts Women
Why "Sex-Positive" Feminism Is Negative For Me
I’m Coming Out As Sex Negative
If this makes everyone hate me then so be it. I'm seeing such a one-sided, aggressive response to Chloe, and I don't think it's fair or helpful to the conversation on a larger scale. It's so much bigger than what it's being perceived as.
I've wanted to discuss this for a while, due to my experiences, but haven't in fear of judgment, accusations, or other misunderstandings as discussed in some of what I linked to. I understand I could probably be clearer in articulating what I'm trying to say, but I hope the general message makes some sense and met with some form of understanding, even if it's disagreement. Please do not take this as some kind of full on endorsement or justification as how to it's being handled on either side, as there's problems on both, but I feel too often that sex negative feminism is immediately shut down and misconstrued as being synonymous with shaming or being ultra conservative, when many times that isn't the case. I'm not missing the point about why it's not OK to criticize Kim. I've fully realized that and addressed it. I just wanted to talk about something that's rarely talked about and that probably affects more people than you know.
ehhhh I feel like Chloe didn't put nearly that much thought into it and was pretty clearly making a respectability argument, which is a form of shaming (and is pretty much confirmed by her RTing Bette's remarks). How some (including Kim's tweet back imo) have treated her in response is problematic though, especially considering Chloe's 19 and afaik does not have a history of negative attacks on celebrities (like Bette has), meaning a discussion w/ her would be more appropriate.
I want to break something.
Chloe going after Kim the same month she puts out a nude magazine cover is pretty eye-roll worthy to me, tbh. Seems like she wanted to hop on the "you need to be a better role model!!!" train and didn't think it through all the way.
idk why i even clicked on this. that's just sad....
posted this to AP but i'll cross post it here for maximum empowerment potential
(trigger warning - this article discusses some really gross things that men have done to women including harassment, assault, stalking, etc)
5 hilarious ways women got revenge on creepy guys
Good post. People very rarely historicize sex and pleasure generally. The sex positive discourse sees these flows and desire as implicitly natural, flowing from our animal nature, that were once shackled and the rejection of those chains is liberatory. Once we look at it with the understanding of patriarchy as a foundational premise, however, sex positivity becomes less about this ideal relationship in which one's primal nature is expressed and becomes more about gendered labor to which men feel entitled.
What would a wonderful day be without some shitty news!? My BFF has been in an abusive relationship before and it seems this new one she's in is headed in the same direction. She is one of the only people on the planet that I care for as deeply as I do my own family. I am a very good judge of character and I have never bullshitted her when it comes to the people she chooses to date.
On some level it seems like she doesn't think she deserves to be treated well..it's heartbreaking. The last abusive guy almost killed her..the gun happened to not be loaded when he pulled the trigger. Her mom, stepdad, and I went and packed her shit and brought her home. There is nothing I can do bc she doesn't want me to interfere. I'm always stuck between a rock and a hard place.
She has so much to offer a partner that will respect her. Whenever her mom calls me, I'm scared to answer bc it's gonna be ALo is dead one of these days and I legit will not be able to handle that. I don't know what to do other than sit here and cry after the awful story she told me. She's the only one who can get herself out of the situation and if she says she needs my help, I'm going in guns blazing and that motherfucker won't know what hit him.
This quote has been ours since we saw the episode:
You sound like an awesome friend. For her, just knowing that you're there for her probably means the world, even if she doesn't know it right now. When she finally decides it's time to walk away, she'll know you'll be there to help her, and that is the most important thing. I'm sorry that's all going on. It feels powerless and it's hard to watch and not be able to do anything until she decides she's ready, but all you can do is be there for her when she needs you and it sounds like you're doing a great job of that. I hope she's able to get out safely and get the help she needs. Sending good vibes your way.
This is from Scandal:
"There's a special place in hell for women who don't support other women."
"There's a special place in hell for women who spout that tired quote to justify their bad behaviour."
I've been thinking about it a lot and how much sense this makes. I see it a lot nowadays, too.
It makes me lol that lots of people think Taylor Swift came up with that quote since she's said it before.
I've never heard it said by a woman who wasn't white.
the problem with a tech revolution designed primarily for men
I know everyone here loves them so I may be in the minority but it really grates how people celebrate Matty Healy for defying gender norms and taking on traditionally ~feminine traits when he's a complete ass towards women and doesn't seem to respect them much at all. Bye. Talking down to women who interview him and saying it'd be emasculating to date Taylor Swift like gtfo. I just dislike him so much. If he makes people feel more comfortable expressing themselves and looking the way they want then I'm glad, but it ends there.
naw i was about to post the article re: taylor swift yesterday cause i saw it on twitter, then thought "ah why bother", then came here just now and read your post haha. wanted to say the same thing you did.
Welp I guess we're just the keyboard bound social warriors that patrol the internet so it doesn't matter what we think!
Obligatory reminder that Marvel Studios could and should do so much better on screen with women, which will always be worth pointing out, but we can still be happy that they're partnering with other organizations to promote women in STEM. Thinking about young girls seeing stuff like this and getting inspired makes me so happy. (Now let's just get more women like this in their films, too!)
WTA: 'Alarming' comments by Indian Wells' tournament director under review - CNN.com
didn't he tweet a bunch of islamaphobic stuff before as well? idk, i like the 1975 but matty definitely comes across extremely messy.
yeahhhh I remember he said some shit about women in particular that left a bad taste in my mouth to the point where I don't even feel like i'm in too much of a rush to ever check out the 1975. which sucks cause i hear they're real great but i'm usually slow to check out new music as it is and it seems like everything i've ever heard him say makes me... not really feel like checking it out any faster haha
yeah that was him. I think the most irritating part is that he responds to things in a really condescending way and he just dismisses everything and it's frustrating. Like how he used his recent statement to deflect from himself and put the blame on others, grr