Pinegrove - Skylight (September 28, 2018) Album • Page 21

Good post.

I think the best analogy with work / regular jobs, is that you shouldn't use your power/standing/money as a boss to coerce a subordinate into a sexual situation. And if you use those things outside of work to gain sex, then you're simply an asshole, and the reason why "finance bros" get so much of their (deserved) scorn.

 

not to be nit picky and detract from the topic at hand, but the "people want the opposite sex to like them" was a little heteronormative.

To address your actual point, when people go to the gym or eat well or wear nice clothes because they want others to find them attractive, there isn't an inherent power dynamic. Or well, there is systemically because cishet men always have an inherent power advantage in society, but not in the sense/context that we're talking about here.

Someone playing in a band for the purpose of getting laid is problematic. They're literally on a stage in front of people who like that person's music enough to spend money on a ticket/album/merch to support them. Using that stage to elevate their power over fans to coerce sex is fucked up. The intent matters, and Evan definitely made his intent known to all of us in that statement.

When I first read the statement my initial reaction was "oh that doesn't sound that bad, but good for Evan for being forthcoming about it and getting rehabilitated." but the longer I sit on it, like everyone else, the more problems I see with it as you start to chip away at the layers of the statement and factor in the tweets from women and others in the scene.

I'm at work right now so this probably didn't get the time and detail it deserved for a response, but I just wanted to at least touch on it since I hadn't seen anyone else address it.

 

Probably gonna just sit this one out tbh. Conversation in here is getting to a point I’m not entirely comfortable discussing without the possibility of offending. I’ll observe and maybe learn.

 

More on that:

 

After years of this, Im just now getting to a point where sometimes I know its bad before someone tells me its bad.

 

relevant, i think. it's good that public figures are being accountable and pushed out of spaces where they could remain predators. but at the same time, the approach needs to be from the ground up. behaviors that have been normalized need to get ironed out now. that can only start, i think, with making consent education a mandatory part of public education.

 

I've been struggling with how to express something I've been feeling the past couple days, but here goes:

I believe that a critical factor in making our society better is to allow those who have done wrong a chance at rehabilitation and redemption, assuming they sincerely acknowledge the wrongs and want to be better. Otherwise we are just teaching people who've made mistakes that their lives are over, so it's in their best interest to continue telling lies and running from the truth.

 

You're all getting to the heart of why public statements don't work

 

was having a discussion on my fb about accountability and a non dude friend of mine made a really good point that right now even the people who might be worth rehabilitating are being part of this movement to make a point that this is not right. hopefully soon we can go at this with more nuance but it makes sense that right now we need to be tough

 

Agree with this. Totally totally different thing but when I was addicted to heroin it took me forever to seek help because I didn't think people would forgive me or allow me to get better. I can see how that could apply to stuff like this and stop people from trying to get better if they don't think it's possible to continue on with life after the fact. But as with addiction you have to actually want to get better for it to be effective in any capacity, which is trickier to gauge the sincerity of someone seeking help.

 

1) humans are not perfect and capable of retribution
2) people in bands are humans
3) people in bands must be virginal and pure and held to a higher standard than civilians even though we build the pedastool

I just talked to my girlfriend for a long while and she read the statement, she feels that a lot of the dialogue around this insinuates she could not sleep with someone in a band because of this "power dynamic" and sense of idolatry and that it's really patronizing and belittles her womanhood so

once again, this isn't about Evan for me anymore and I will throw him to the coals if more comes out without regret. but some of you need to seriously make sure your quest for justice doesn't obscure justice itself and demean people you're trying to champion

 

very well said

 

lol why did Comacinema block me on twitter, I don't even tweet?

 

thank you for this, the idea that enlightenment has ruined our capacity for forgiveness really fucks with me and my sense of empathy and I think it's really important

 

The power dynamic between bands and fans is something to which I had never given much thought. And that's likely because I am a man. I think we need to acknowledge and reflect on where else this occurs -- namely, at work and elsewhere in our lives.

I will admit, however, that I am not entirely sure I have a good grasp on what does or does not constitute an abuse of power. I know some instances, like Jesse's actions, are quite obvious that a line was more than crossed. But, as some have touched on in this thread, is it possible to overcompensate and basically view women as beneath you and unable to make decisions for themselves? That seems quite problematic as well.

As someone who has been married for years, I can honestly say that I've consistently thought of and treated my wife as a complete equal and haven't pandered to her because I'm a man and she's a woman. We don't believe in things like gender defined roles in our marriage (i.e., I have no issues with doing laundry, cooking, cleaning, etc. and I don't treat her as incapable of taking out the trash or occasionally mowing the lawn.)

I'm digressing, but now I'm starting to wonder if I've ever been unaware of some privilege I've had as a male and unknowingly mistreated her or others.

 

The issue is that sexual coercion is an entirely different thing. If it really played out the way he says it played out, then why come forward and apologize? Especially since his side of the story came out before any official accusations were leaked -- seems less like a guilty confession and more like him trying to get ahead of the accusations before the real truth makes him look worse. He came out and "apologized" but said "we loved each other and it was consensual and then it ended quickly when she got uncomfortable." That's not an apology. That sounds like trying to deflect from what actually happened.

If he really felt guilty, he should have let her decide whether, when, and HOW to make this public, and then acknowledged it, rather than taking that voice himself and inserting his perspective.

 

Dude the post you're responding to said it's not about Evan

 

i am going to refrain from really contributing to this until its more clear what is going on. but since my wife is a woman maybe ill post what her thoughts as a woman were on this:


she also was worried that people would start to view woman as unable to make personal decisions such as who they want to sleep with / she feels like as a woman she wants to be held accountable for things she does and feel less separated.




again, i dont know where i stand right now, im just trying to learn and take it all in. just wanted to post whay the woman in my lifes thoughts were. its a really tricky balance.

 

that wasn't an attack or anything. I thought him and his girlfriend were discussing Evan's statement. I just was saying that I don't trust it, that's all.

 

Im not trying to have an argument or point fingers at any perspectives or anything, just free flowing discussion. I don't think any of us FULLY knows how to respond to this one.

 

This was exactly my thoughts upon hearing this report.

 

I honestly wish we could encourage those with differing views here to participate without slandering and villifying those who are asking tough clarification questions. We've already had a lot of nasty, sanctimonious discussions about this topic on Chorus so far.

 

Well the issue being discussed isn't his statement it's whether or not the issue of power dynamics with band members takes away the agency of women to make decisions of who they want to sleep with

 

Mostly I feel like it's important that public figures take their time in interactions with fans, to carefully make sure that the response is one of mature appreciation and not one of being idolized. And also make sure the energy between the two of them is mutual.

I imagine it's very difficult within the first hour or two of meeting someone to know the difference, hence why it still appears like a predatory practice to me, to get off stage and immediately look around to see if anyone swooned or is otherwise vulnerable.