Here They Come Again • Page 2

Also fucked that if this had been a situation where it came out that he was stealing jokes he’d be out of work for years

 

Great article. I have to admit however that there's more nuance to the Aziz incident than the others, and I find myself disliking popular tweets that basically imply he and Louis C.K. are equally bad. One comedian abused their position and power to sexually assault women without their consent, and very likely harmed aspiring comedian's careers in the process. He also, to my knowledge, did not make any attempts at accountability or an apology until long, long after the damage was done.

Then there's Aziz who according to both his and his date's account, treated her really shitty and persistently pushed for sex, though it was consensual. Then according to both accounts, he privately apologized the next day when she told him how uncomfortable his actions had made her feel. The guy set a perfect example on how NOT to treat a woman you're on a date with, and how you can cause harm while technically not committing assault, which is an important conversation that we should be having as a society. But it also does not sit right with me that he acknowledged her pain and apologized literally the day after, and the story was still passed around the public sphere like he was an unrepentant rapist. I'm for social justice, but I'm also for nuance. We're going to have a hard time changing the minds of the people who need to be reached, if we treat these two men as one and the same. Same with the James Gunn thing that happened recently with Disney. Why own up to the bad shit you've done and apologize and try to change, if society says it doesn't matter?

 

Coerced consent is not consent. Aziz's situation is more than a "bad date", it was assault

 

Awesome article. Two many men care more about whether funny man on stage can make their brain happy than whether they can channel any form of legitimate empathy towards the careers, comfort, and overall autonomy of women.

 

If I'm a cashier and I steal from the register at one job and get fired, it's super unlikely that I would get hired again to handle money anywhere, no matter how sorry I was. Actions should have consequences. I'll say it again- these dudes don't NEED to be comedians to have a livelihood. There are a million jobs in the world. Apologizing doesn't mean you deserve a public platform, especially when you've specifically used that platform to harm others.

Where we really need nuance is in understanding the perpetual trauma that women experience just for existing. Coercion, assault, verbal, emotional, physical abuse- they're all part of the same system that men like this take advantage of for their own benefit. And when it's not blatant physical abuse, people trot out the "well it wasn't as bad as it could have been" excuse. In my opinion, it's a betrayal of victims to act like "he said sorry on twitter AND it's been 6 months since this happened" cuts it as "justice."

 

I'm sorry, I simply don't agree that that's what happened here. Coercion is making someone do something by threat or force. Being a persistent asshole is not the same as making someone do something.

There was (and still is, I hope) an opportunity for a very important conversation to be had from this incident regarding men's expectations for sex, understanding verbal and non-verbal cues and backing off when they are given, and just the societal dynamics in general of how men are encouraged to be persistent and women are taught to be fearful of saying no. This is incredibly relevant to young men and women all over, who are probably not strangers to this situation. We can make it known that while this kind of behavior isn't technically sexual assault, it's still creepy and unethical, and we have to do better than this.

I worry that this conversation either doesn't happen or gets ignored when the prevailing twitter-heads reduce it to "Aziz Ansari and Louis C.K are rapists."

 

"But the main thing was that he wouldn’t let her move away from him. She compared the path they cut across his apartment to a football play. “It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a fucking game.”"

"Throughout the course of her short time in the apartment, she says she used verbal and non-verbal cues to indicate how uncomfortable and distressed she was. “Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points,” she said. “I stopped moving my lips and turned cold.”"

"Ansari instructed her to turn around. “He sat back and pointed to his penis and motioned for me to go down on him. And I did. I think I just felt really pressured. It was literally the most unexpected thing I thought would happen at that moment because I told him I was uncomfortable.”"

I understand your intentions seem to be good here, but this IS sexual assault. There's no grey areas here, Aziz assaulted this woman and is rightfully being mentioned with C.K. because they both used their position to talk about how gross men can be and joke about these subjects while hiding the fact that they do the same thing.

 

Sorry, I just want to be very clear here, you're saying that a woman in a situation where she literally did not feel that she could say no without suffering consequences "wasn't raped," just because you don't feel like it counts as rape? Okay.

 

Although Lacey's been discussed to death, I'm curious on how you'd feel about a comeback; as an apology, therapy, and donations *appear* to be checked.

 

Having spent time talking with multiple women involved, I don’t believe even the first has been “checked.”

 

Thanks. Was only going off what I had available.

 

Restorative justice isn't the same as restorative exoneration, and that's in the rare case that the perpetrator actually *does* the work. Which doesn't happen, because it isn't asked of them. They're welcomed back with open arms to their industries. Why would they change if no one tells them they have to?

Victims get to live with what happened to them in some shape or form, whether they have PTSD or not. Why on earth are we so worried about making sure that abusers get something their victims never will? If you're worried about redemption for perpetrators of assault and abuse, focus on creating a culture and a world where it isn't normalized. Otherwise, maybe folks should just own that they really are so concerned because they just don't want to feel guilty for still consuming the works of and supporting an abuser.

Nobody is taking away their actual lives (although abusive women and queer folks are seeing much more decisive repercussions for their abuse... but I digress) or doing anything else like that. Their victims can lose their jobs, reputations, and even lives in the aftermath. Where is THEIR justice? If losing a platform is the price to pay for being a public and active participant in in r*pe culture, I'm okay with that and most other survivors I know will be too. Move into the private sector, get a normal job. Get help, give back to the communities you hurt. THAT is restorative justice. Not "I disappeared, issued a half baked apology and now it's business as usual".

 

can you believe we'll be making these same posts in every thread about this shit, reliving our own trauma, till the end of time? because people don't want to feel bad that they like rapists? incredible.

 

Yep this. And honestly? Though the Internet makes it real easy to talk, a lot more people in this thread need to empathize and listen for a while.

It can feel terrible to like someone's art and find out they're a terrible person who has committed despicable acts/crimes. But maybe a lot of the folks in this thread should think about the millions of people who are the actual victims of this toxic status quo culture before standing up for the people actively perpetuating it. Even if you DO need to use the "what if it was my sister/child/whatever" starting point (which you shouldn't... women shouldn't need to be connected to you by blood to deserve your empathy), just, like, stop what you're doing and think more. I promise, most of you will end up coming to the conclusion that maybe these highly creative millionaires don't deserve your defense of your money.