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Donald Trump’s Nomination Is Terrifying • Page 4

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by Melody Bot, Jul 22, 2016.

  1. skatinbrad Jul 24, 2016
    (Last edited: Jul 24, 2016)
    skatinbrad

    Newbie

    I disagree, I'm voting and supporting trump this year.

    I do think the shit he says is ridiculous, but he does so to clamor for headlines. He's amazing with confirmation bias and knows how to keep his name in the news. Unfortunately, he does it with garbage statements.

    Hillary is absolute garbage though. Aside from saying "to spite Trump" or "to prevent a Trump win" how can you actually support a Clinton won? The corruption is insane. The media influence and pull is strong. She's got Bernie wrapped around her finger right now with that shameful endorsement too. The DNC is at an ultimate low.

    I don't love trump. But I do support a lot of his ideas. His Heath care plan is to wipe the Affordable Care Act (thank god) in favor of a new system. Instead of the health care marketplace being YOUR state's packages (basically whatever prices your state wants to charge), he wants to open up the market place to cross between states. This creates way more competition for health insurance providers, lowers prices (because I live in the high NJ, Idaho will offer me a supremely lower rate) and everyone wins.

    That's a short example. I understand he says stupid shit, but read his policies and ideas. Clinton wants to continue Affordable Care, which means health care remains expensive as FUCK and you get fined for not having it.

    I could go on, I'm using health care as an example. I understand if you think he spews shit sometimes, but his intention is not to be the best president, but to hire the right people in his cabinet to pull it off.

    Not to mention, Trump's intention is to create a better relationship with Russia. Clinton is a war hawk that intends on leaning towards aggression and fighting with Russia. Putin even supports a Trump win, because it creates less tension. Voting for Clinton is voting for another big scuffle with Russia. Fuck that.

    I voted Obama but have been increasingly disgusted and disappointed with this election on the Dem side. The more I actually read and listen about Trump's intention, even though his delivery is hot garbage, the more welcomed I feel. The further we dig with Clinton, the worse it has gotten.

    I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but I'm simply laying it out: read Trump's perspectives and plans aside from the Buzzfeed/CNN/MSNBC "Top 5 Most Racist Trump Remarks" articles. Actually read his intentions or desires. Even if you don't like him, be well-versed in what he wants. Right now he's a huge supporter of LGBT as well. Research his policies and understand him on a deeper level than biased media's spin.

    I don't love him. But he's definitely an interesting character and has influenced a lot and played around the media. He went from the most hated joke to the (arguably) most likely candidate to be president. It's a ridiculous, impressive, confusing progression. But research him as a character. Don't just shit on it or read the same biased pieces. It took me a bit to open my mind to him, but it's a very interesting phenomenon
     
    Schooner likes this.
  2. Dominick

    Prestigious Prestigious

    The republican platform is its most anti-gay platform we've seen in years and the person he has chosen as his running mater believes in gay conversion therapy. This is just an example of how one cannot separate out the "garbage" from his intent. It has been pretty explicit with its echoes of Nixonian law and order. It is saying you, cis white men and women, are in danger. We know you want a restoration that is predicated upon erasing any semblance of progress, such as it has been yielded, and we will do that for you. We will do this because the only way for you to be healthy, employed and whole is by crushing the people that want the police to stop murdering them, sending eleven million people on a trail of tears-like march back to their country of origins and banning Muslims. His policies, then, do not signify anything other than an authoritarian despair that has a rapacious lust for the utter destruction of the other.
     
  3. Pooch

    Regular


    This is pretty much all you need to know about what's going on with the Republican party
     
    Carmensaopaulo likes this.
  4. A final response to the "Tell me why Trump is a fascist".

    Your support is terrifying.
     
  5. skogsraet

    Trusted Supporter

    "Ridiculous, but he does it...for headlines." Full stop, this let me know how unaffected you are by Trump. If you have heard the racist, sexist, xenophobic stuff he says and you can justify it by media coverage, you must not give a damn what's going to happen to women, immigrants and nonwhite people if someone like this wins the presidency.

    The voting system has been corrupt. It will be corrupt unless the people foster a change. Hillary has also been corrupt, and the DNC too. You really think they're gonna give all that corruption up and go home cause you voted Trump? Nah (but what do you care, you're not an immigrant)! Bernie added a couple things to Clinton's platform however, so "that shameful endorsement" really isn't that shameful if you actually supported what Bernie was talking about with his campaign. Yeah, I'm voting for Hillary because I think Trump is worse. This is exactly how the two party system is designed to work, I'm not happy with it, I don't think this is America's best candidate but you know what I really, really don't want? I don't want to live in a society that validates and rewards openly racist and sexist candidates with a key to the highest office in our country. That would be far more disastrous than our current, corrupt system.


    ...oh, honey. We are a year into Trump's campaign. He has yet to elaborate on "a new system." He has repeatedly stated he will repeal the current system and replace t with "something great." He's never actually outlined ANY policy, so just know, you may be voting for Trump for the noble reason of health care, but not even he knows what he's actually going to do with health care-- you're just taking the word of a man you've already admitted has said horrible things because, you know, Obamacare sucks! And you're right. It sucks. It's expensive, it's privatized and health care providers are fucking wolves, but I'm not about to switch that out for "something." Our country deserves a president who actually knows HOW to do what they promise.

    I'm not voting because "it's a very interesting phenomenon." That's not enough. You ask that people are informed on his policies, but the only one you brought up was health care, which he doesn't have a policy for, like the rest of his issues. The RNC is typically used to outline policies, Trump did none of that. He said "make America great, make America first, crime is bad, it's Obama's fault, I'm the only one who can fix it." He never said how, even his statistics were a bit exaggerated, straying from fact to prove a point. He sounded great and the convention seemed like the celebration he promised, but where the fuck are those policies? I listened to Trump all week, we are now four months before the election and he's still all talk, no policy, so it's really hard to believe you're supporting him based on "his policies" when all he really has are ideas. Great, Trump, well, I've got a lot of ideas myself and I'm really kicking myself for not running as president, but then again, we need more than just ideas, don't we?

    Dominick already lined out why Trump is bad for LGBT people, but he really could've just said "Pence" and left it at that. I'm tempted to say you're probably not LGBT either, or you would know this, but Pence advocated for businesses to refuse LGBT people service on religious grounds. So Trump's a huge supporter? Whatever. He already said his Vice President would be making all foreign and domestic decisions (Pence 2016!) while he sits back and "makes America great again," so I guess LGBT people better just stop planning to be consumers, right?

    Oh, and Russia -- Trump says his plan with Putin is "to talk to him." Let me remind you this is the man who, faced with questions about his previous comments referring to women as dogs, responded by insulting the interviewer and chalking her questions up to her menstrual cycle. You really want someone who can't even handle social questions he brought onto himself to be able to "talk it out" with Putin? God help us if that's the case.
     
  6. RiseAgainst379

    Regular

    You can't logic someone out of an opinion they didn't arrive at logically in the first place. The sad fact is that Trump plays into the fears of many americans that our country is headed in the wrong direction, a fear that's deeply held by many people regardless of political affiliation.

    The difference is the "why" that he's selling. Trump is saying that it's not your fault. In fact, it's the fault of the "others." People who don't look like you. People who don't deserve our country like you do. He's saying you always knew deep down that America is special because you are special, and you can't let the "others" take that away.

    That is hateful, and I cannot condone hate. But, I suspect that appeal will fall on deaf ears of Trump supporters, because again I say that you cannot logic someone out of an opinion they didn't use logic to arrive to in the first place.
     
  7. doubledribble

    Regular

    You're also not going to change someone's opinion by calling them illogical. It's not much different from the insolent shit Trump spews, and it isn't a way that you can attempt to engage in any type of productive conversation with that person. All it will do is start a pissing match which I'm hoping I don't have to see on this site. I enjoy coming here and reading opinions from all different viewpoints.

    I guess I'm just trying to say we don't have to be condescending towards each other in an effort to make a point.
     
  8. How is calling out someone's illogical views even remotely similar to being a fear-mongering racist/sexist/xenophobe?
     
    FTank likes this.
  9. skogsraet

    Trusted Supporter

    Current polling shows 40% of Americans voting for Trump. I don't think 40% of the population cannot be reached with logic. That's not only a condescending way to refer to a very large group of people, it actually puts a stop to discussion.

    To compare this to history, only a small population of the worst racists would vote for segregation now, but 50 years ago, the country was divided on it. Voters changed their minds, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't because everyone just woke up one day and said "hey I don't wanna be a racist anymore," but because every logical argument fell apart except "I only support this cause I'm a card carrying racist." If we can help our peers reach that conclusion and take a good look at themselves, then I do think it's worth it to approach all voters with logic and even though I've yet to see that happen, at least we can facilitate respectful discussion amongst ourselves.
     
    doubledribble likes this.
  10. doubledribble

    Regular

    Insults are insults no matter what is said. The point is that it's not going to lead to anything productive and it's just going to lead to a pissing contest which creates a bigger divide. There is no reason for it which was the entire point I was making.
     
  11. Leftandleaving

    I will be okay. everything Supporter

    Insults are insults, yeah, but context and content can't be ignored. All insults do not carry the same weight and that was a false equivalence
     
  12. Wharf Rat

    I know a little something you won't ever know Prestigious

    Good luck debating fash
     
  13. doubledribble

    Regular

    That's fine and dandy. The point remains that you're going to turn off who you are talking to if you insult them, especially when discussing politics. You know how sensitive people are to their political viewpoints. Calling people illogical is insulting and it won't lead to a productive conversation.
     
  14. Dominick

    Prestigious Prestigious

    How does one have a discussion with a person who enters it with the understanding that whole groups of people are subhuman, deserving of state sponsored violence?
     
  15. doubledribble

    Regular

    What's the point of antagonizing that person?
     
  16. Dominick

    Prestigious Prestigious

    Nah, you're right. Let them continue to legitimate their views.
     
  17. Wharf Rat

    I know a little something you won't ever know Prestigious

    Fascism being, on its face, open to debate or conversation is a strategy. Fascists being illogical is a strategy. They want you to engage in what you believe is good faith debate. When you do so, they will counter with racist, nativist, authoritarian, fear mongering, and violent pathos that is, in fact, not argued in good faith. A debate stage for a fascist is a soap box, a platform from which to espouse propaganda. They will spout information they know to be false and use a grain of truth to give it credibility. They will scapegoat minorities. They will manipulate statistics, take them out of context, and draw unscientific conclusions from them, and couch all of this in rhetoric that makes the target audience feel like a victim in need of saving, or empowerment, and position themselves or their movement as the savior. What you say, arguing for your side, will not matter much to them. They don't have to disprove your point, they have to call it weak, or sympathetic to nontraditional values and movements that threaten the status quo. This isn't because they are ignorant (though they are) or mistaken or stupid, it is because this is how fascist movements have historically succeeded. We have all seen the ways Trump is strikingly similar to Mussolini. He's said, probably rightly, that he could murder someone in cold blood and not lose significant support. This is not logical, but it is a result of this type of strategy. The rhetoric employed convinces people that regardless of the leader's transgressions, he and his movement are going to save them from the barbarity of minorities and foreigners who are intent on raping their women, destroying their culture, and committing genocide against whites. They position themselves as the Last Great Hope against Armageddon, and in that scenario, logic and morality are not so important.

    (Turns out they are the last great hope against something, historically, but not the end of the world)

    All of this is to say that 1) it is not an insult to call fascism illogical because 2) fascism is illogical by design and deliberately eschews logic in favor of violent pathos in order to strengthen itself, therefore 3) it should not be given a platform to legitimize and spread itself.

    They are already antagonistic towards me if they wish for my subjugation and death.
     
    Penguin, Zoshchenko, Dominick and 4 others like this.
  18. iCarly Rae Jepsen

    run away with me Platinum

    unfortunately there is no logical reason to support Trump
     
    Aaron Mook likes this.
  19. cybele

    set our hearts ablaze Supporter

    "Illogical" is far from an insult and hardly antagonizing.
     
  20. skogsraet

    Trusted Supporter

    I totally agree, but you're making broad assumptions here on the listener. In this thread, we're not actually dealing with Mussolini, we're probably just dealing with 15 year old kids who really like Blink 182 and whose dad is voting for Trump because health care! Yes the view is still inherently racist because supporting Trump is inherently racist, but that kid needs to hear contrasting view points and calling him illogical won't help him. I could be wrong. I don't remember who I replied to, quite honestly, and I agree racists don't deserve the time or attention it takes to break down why racism is wrong, we already know it's wrong, however, I believe in the power of education and I'm willing to at least try to help change the minds contributing to the most backward movement in recent US politics.
     
  21. doubledribble

    Regular

    I think I'm being looked upon as a Trump supporter which is not even remotely close to true. Your post does express what I'm trying to say.
     
    skatinbrad and Carmensaopaulo like this.
  22. skogsraet

    Trusted Supporter

    I don't think anyone is trying to say that reasoning with Trump supporters equates to supporting him. I think the whole point was to say that attempting reason is a dead end.
     
    doubledribble likes this.
  23. Dominick

    Prestigious Prestigious

    I believe this is one of those examples of the banality of evil.
     
  24. skogsraet

    Trusted Supporter

    I still can't wrap my head around 40% of our population being evil. A large group of the country's white narcissists, ignorant people and racists thrown in, that figure is a little more believable, but I think it's dismissive to say they're all just evil. The fact that we have these kinds of people in our country is proof that communities across the country are validating racism instead of calling it out and educating our peers. This doesn't just come down to an election, I actually believe we have to (logically) deconstruct these weak ass arguments in order to expose racists for who they are and expose America for our communal complacency.
     
    lightning13 likes this.