Bon Iver – 22, A Million • Page 2

So is your definition of "songwriting" the standard verse-chorus structure? I get not liking it, because I didn't like it for a long time either, but I think it's kind of dismissive to say Vernon wasn't doing "actual songwriting" with this record. Ditching the verse-chorus formula is one of the most freeing things a songwriter can do.

 

Just add "Blood Bank" and that's a pretty solid "Best Of" track listing right there.

 

One of the most difficult too.

 

You're wrong; it's actually (and totally undeniably) Perth.

 

No, there are plenty of structures one can use to create a song (as a musician/songwriter myself I rarely use traditional structures). I would have been fine with any of them. I would have been fine if no song on the album had a chorus and if it was all verses and bridges and whatnot. I fully accept that I am being dismissive to his songwriting here because it honestly mostly sounds like a bunch of unattached clips (i.e., no songwriting). There are songs where this works (again, Over Soon and also 33 GOD) and many where it just drives me up the wall. I've tried thinking about this record in many ways, and none of them have led me to actually enjoy it as a full album. If I see something that I don't like, I'm critical about it. It's nothing personal to Vernon.

It's cool that you like it man, I don't look down on people who have different opinions than me. And I'm not stubborn enough to avoid trying different things or different ways of looking at music. I just really think this album is bad, and I've given it plenty of shots. I think I've listened to the full thing something like 15 times. The first two records are some of my favourites of all time - I didn't write this one off easy.

 

As a songwriter also, I'm still struggling to understand what you mean about this being "not songwriting." I've previously written songs that I didn't like as I wrote them, but then taken a verse from here, a chorus from here, a bridge from there, and mixed them together into something I liked way more. Does that not qualify as songwriting because those pieces weren't initially supposed to be attached? Again, I'm totally cool with you not liking this record, and if you gave it a bunch of shots, that's really all you can do. But I'm definitely struggling to see how it doesn't even amount to true songwriting in your eyes.

 

I'm struggling with the same thing, haha. Do you see songwriting as such a vast and vague definition that throwing together any musical parts into a track of some length constitutes as songwriting? I legitimately feel that some of these tracks are that way, and I don't consider that songwriting. Songwriting requires tweaking, transitions, a general sense of continuity (which doesn't preclude glitchiness, I can name songs that do that well). In all honesty I find some of these tracks to be just noise.

To be clear, I don't think that the ridiculous definition I gave above is your definition of songwriting. I definitely think you can combine disparate parts into new and interesting songs. I just don't think Bon Iver did that here. It seriously sounds like sometimes he threw stuff together and called it good. I know how arduous the recording process was for this record too, I read a long article about it and the iconography of the record, so it actually surprises me that this is my impression every time I hear it - but it is. Does that make sense? Of course, our confusion comes from having listened to the same record and come away with completely different conclusions, so it makes sense that we won't see eye to eye about something. As long as I'm being clear with my perspective that's all I care about haha.

 

I think songwriting can be pretty much anything that coalesces into a song, and it ultimately depends on the genre what I consider to be "songwriting" and what I consider to be "production" and "arrangement." If that makes sense. My background as both a listener and a songwriter is folk and country music, so storytelling and songwriting are usually synonymous to me. In that sense, Vernon has never been my favorite songwriter--either in his genre or overall. I think his lyrics are pretty nebulous most of the time, to the point where I don't get a whole lot out of them. I listen to his music more for his vocals and how he chooses to arrange/compose the sounds. In that sense, I think his songwriting is very impressive, because I think he's able to convey things and create worlds without having a particularly impressive lyrical gift.

I definitely understand where you're coming from, and I don't really have a personal definition for what constitutes songwriting. And I wouldn't give this record any songwriting awards this year anyway: I'd reserve those for artists who, like I said, excel in storytelling because that's what I love most in lyrics.

 

Yeah for sure! For the purpose of my comment I omitted Blood Bank but for many I think that was the moment when BI went from "wow this is good" to "wow he could really take this somewhere special".

 

You'll see it made my top four songs from that album. Brilliant openers and closers on all his records.

 

It's funny. Perth and Holocene are both totally and undeniably my favorite Bon Iver songs. I like this argument.

 

Decided the opener is the best track on 22 A Million

 

Watch Bon Iver Perform Live In A Brooklyn Warehouse

Incredible. All the songs, somehow, translate so well.
I'm in awe, as I always am.