Accountability in Music • Page 78

What? It's not the new place to look for this info. I just linked some helpful threads at the bottom of those posts for people looking to dive into a forum for the first time and to get the feel of what the forum is. Your best bet to find and follow a thread will always be to 'follow' a thread and use the followed threads/unread followed threads page.

 

that's it, thanks. dude definitely has more than one public accusation, that's for sure- several facebook communities i was in talked about this stuff years before that band was a thing.

also checked their page, and they're doing a show with gbc, so I guess they're hyped enough to be in that scene too.

 

I thought the reason you unstickied this was because it had been linked over there?

 

Nope. Not what I said at all.

 

I guess from what I gathered it was a toxic relationship and whether she was underage seems to be argued back and forth a lot. I think regardless there was a power imbalance and it doesn't sound like it was a good situation but the girl also seems like she has moved on. And recently I have seen ppl drop Andy's name but I've never seen anyone be specific just that they've heard something so I never know what to make of that either. So my face is just permanently

 

Yeah that’s what I was referring to around the BN talk. I’ve never heard even a rumbling about Andy so that all was pretty shocking.

 

Speaking of this, and the fact Kanye announced (2?) albums today ... did everyone just kinda get over the stuff like "Cosby is Innocent" and the rest? Cause I haven't been able to go back to his albums since that one. That was the final straw for me and I find it hard to be excited about his new material.

 

there's a strong racial component to the kanye/cosby thing that i think makes it a far more complicated thing to think about

 

Gonna have to say more than that ...

 

Honestly Kanye’s Cosby stuff didnt bother me too much because Cosby meant a lot to me growing up, I know he did to other POC, and I understand the impulse to go into denial after hearing the horrifying stories that came out about him, especially considering how it was likely perceived among some white people. Kanye’s never been one to not say exactly how he feels, this was one of many instances where his input was unhelpful and damaging, but I honestly wonder sometimes if he’s even capable of reeling himself back. Obviously what he said was fucked up, but he wasn’t the abuser in this situation, and I personally can find it in myself to forgive him for what he said.

The Trump stuff bothered me more, but then he had a mental breakdown right after, so I don’t really know how to read that situation.

 

The Trump stuff I can barely think about without just getting, just, angry. AFAIK, he's never addressed that or said anything else on the topic (from my brief checking of Twitter/Google):

 

He didn’t explicitly cut ties but there is this: Kanye West: I'm done with Donald Trump

Iirc he said at a show that he wasn’t a Trump voter, but he wanted to have communication with him to bring issues he cared about to the Oval Office. I don’t think he ever meant to align himself ideologically with trump, but that’s me reading between the lines.

I know there’s going to be people who want to cancel Kanye over this stuff, and obviously that’s a personal choice, I’m just choosing to be more forgiving because of his mental health issues and the fact that he’s never actually abused anyone, unlike most of the people we talk about in this thread.

 

I dunno, I am hesitant to walk down the mental health angle because it's a slippery slope. It's the defense used by virtually all these bands as the reasoning for what they've done in the past and, given that this is the accountability thread to work through/walk through these personal struggles, I think not directly addressing the pain caused is basically the opposite of accountability. Part of healing, in many cases, involves taking accountability for past actions and words. Getting help and the accountability process, to me, doesn't just come to an end and conclusion. It's a process. (Related, I've stopped using products and companies because of their association with Donald Trump.)

A few pages back people were talking about tweets from bands and the enabling of abusive people and language, and I just don't see how it's possible to be so sure and consistent with those, and then, at the same time, not wanting to take a big hard look at our relationship with an artist like Kanye. It's easier to jump into a State Champs thread and talk about the "Tumblr Justice" tweet, because that band sucks, than it is to talk about this IMO. And, we talk a lot in here (and other threads) about people giving abusers platforms and other forms of enabling behavior of abusive people. I can't think of an artist I've struggled with more in the past few years than Kanye. When @Dominick started posting more about the language and why he stopped listening a few months (years? I lost track of time), it really stuck with me and I've had a really hard time going back to the past albums. Many of which are some of my favorite albums of all time. I guess I'd also say that there's a lot of abuse in this scene I wouldn't consider "direct" abuse, but of an indirect variety, or actions and language that I think is extremely harmful. I think that's applicable in many ways to my relationship with Kanye's persona and words and even to some degree his music itself.

 

Commenting so I get notifications for this thread to keep up with everything, idk how anything works sorry

 

He declared Bill Cosby innocent. The majority of Cosby’s victims were black women.

 

I believe there is also a 'Follow This Thread' button near the top right of the page that does the same thing.

 

I’m aware. Like I said, his comments were damaging. My point was that i understand the impulse. I never said that everyone loves Cosby.

 

My point in that comment was to say that, while he didn’t perpetrate that crime, for example, he basically called the women liars which is directly abusive, in my opinion.

 

(And in the action menu - top right button - on mobile as well.)

 

I can see that. I guess what I meant by “directly abusive” is that it’s not on the same level as assault, but yeah. Still pretty fucking bad.

 

I don't condone what he said about Cosby or what Chappelle said about R Kelly but I understand it intellectually

 

I understand if you feel uncomfortable listening to Kanye now, I feel uncomfortable listening to Morrissey and Billy Corgan now because they are right wing conspiracists and John Mayer because he compared his penis to David Duke and called Kumail Nanjiani "pretty funny for a brown guy", but I know not everyone will draw the same lines and I think it's different from actively supporting an abuser

 

Making a second account because I feel like I'll be called names at under my own, ban it if you must I just want to write one thing that bugged me today. I came into this thread to see "What did I miss today"? And saw people getting mad that this thread isn't pinned because they said accountability is important and this being pinned sends a message. Ok, I see the argument but Jason's response makes sense and I see both sides. Then many of those same people that just talked about sending a message about accountability seemed to go lose their minds over Kanye West. Some of those same people that are usually very vocal about how they look down on people for listening to music that is related at all to anyone that's done something bad or kinda bad. Language like fuck this band fuck that person is not uncommon. Some of those threads have been extremely mean and judgmental. Maybe even over the line in a few cases. But now those people are being very silent over the discussions of Kanye's own accountability and issues that by any reasonable account are on par with many of this scenes own issues? One post implied it was basically racist to say Kanye's defense of a rapist was bad and went silent behind talks of it being "complicated"?

Do people actually want to talk about accountability and how we deal with it or not? Do we not care how it looks to yell at someone for posting a message on reddit prompting their band or like the posts doing so and then turn a blind eye to your own or your friends problematic present? If you won't talk about your decision making to listen to problematic men maybe you shouldn't take a position with other people talking about or deciding not to talk about their similar choices or maybe we can all be nicer to each other? The hostility and silence seemed in such sharp contrast when reading this thread today. If you're hyping a Kanye album but got mad about a pinned thread I think we've lost sight of the point of all of this.

Back to lurking. I’m sorry for making a second account.

 

On the topic of Kanye and Cosby, yes, there is a history and present in which black men have been targeted for imprisonment and murder. On the other hand, there is a history and a present in which black women are raped, assaulted and because society conceptualizes them as hyper-sexual and being of little value, they have no recourse for justice. Both of these things can be true and the former cannot justify the latter, otherwise we are crafting a hierarchy of pain in which men are worth more and that simply reflects the current hierarchy of our society in any case, the same society we are trying to destroy and move beyond.

 

I hope that above post wasn’t directed at me, I was out coaching and just saw the Ye talk.

I’ve been vocal about my disappointment of Kanye since the Cosby statements. It certainly affected how I feel about TLOP, along with all the other shit he did. The stuff with Wiz and Amber Rose was super fucked too.

Do I still view him as incredibly influential and one of my favorite artists? Yes. Am I worried about the quality of his new music? Yes. I can side eye and call him out and also listen to his new music. I talk to my students about how influential he is while at the same time the problematic things he’s said. His statements should be criticized and spoken about.