Accountability in Music • Page 7

Another question -

We've been talking about how, saying "band members shouldnt sleep with fans" kind of feeds a backdoor sexist narrative in male-to-female relations, and patronizes a woman's freedom to decide for herself if she actually does want to sleep with a band member or whoever. A few women brought up that point and it's not a discussion for men to have -- but on the topic of band member accountability, related to that line of logic:

How does a band member responsibly differentiate between a person that simply admires them in a healthy, peer-to-peer sort of way... and a person that idolizes them, to the point they could potentially feel pressured to do things outside their comfort zone, in order to make an impression on that artist?

I imagine it can be really difficult to tell, with the infatuation involved in the moment, whether that person's consent is genuine or just due to social pressure.

 

I approach the narrative in that "it is incredibly risky for band members to sleep with fans" instead of "shouldn't". First, I don't apply the statement in terms of gender - it's always risky for a lot of different reasons. However, right now, we're talking in the context of men in bands abusing younger female fans, so I'll stick to that perspective.

The relationship between "celebrity" (used in quotes because these dudes aren't exactly famous, but... you get it) and "fan" is inherently imbalanced. (This can of course be influenced by outside factors and societal inequalities depending on race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.) In cases like this, that imbalance is magnified by the age difference and the fact that we live in a culture in which the sexualization of young girls is a common occurrence. This balance exists regardless of a woman's agency (or lack thereof) - it's an entirely separate entity.

Because women DO have the freedom to truly choose, the possibility that someone in a band becoming romantic with a fan with nobody getting hurt (outside of the usual, non-abusive ways people hurt each other) does exist. But the risks are amplified because of that original power imbalance and there's no way around that. EDIT: It bears noting that I'm assuming some of these band dudes have the best possible intentions in this analysis, even though a lot of these creeps/repeat offenders use that power imbalance to get away with repeated abusive behaviors, and because of that inherent imbalance it's impossible to know if these people would be abusive daters even WITHOUT the platform and access provided to them on the road.

So - I won't say they shouldn't. But I will say that if those risks aren't worth it to them - because, as you pointed out, there is no real way to differentiate between the two, especially for guys who can't seem to even differentiate between a 15 and 18 year old - then they should probably date people who have no idea who they are.

 

subbing

 

I don't think there's any point to an abuser publicly coming forward preemptively unless it's to explain that they are going to recuse themselves from their public platform because they have abused it.

Otherwise, their motives are always gonna be suspect (controlling the narrative? looking for cookies? discrediting potential victims? generally missing the point of what and who apologies are for?) and they ought to actively go about owning what they've done/trying to make amends/become a better person privately like everybody else.

So there's my two cents.

 

I think Evan's statement was deliberately misdirecting. He mentions that he's been accused of sexual coercion, doesn't go further into that, but that's an incredibly serious thing to be accused of and then he starts explaining a relationship of his. A relationship that was intense and he misread things. Then he talks about looking at fans in the crowd in a predatory way, which really creeped me out tbh. That's gross. He didn't say anything specific about the accusations, and it feels strange when he's coming first, effectively silencing any victims who choose to come forward because he's garnered sympathy through his statement. I'm glad he's getting help and the band is cancelling a tour for now. Also, a bunch of people close to the band (including Petal) have tweeted about this, sounds like it goes deeper and more people knew

 

there was a post ahead of time but that was deleted, which makes it even worse that he made this statement when nothing else was already there, makes it far more self-serving (especially since it uses a lot of the same language)

 

Welp, there goes our childhoods: https://www.avclub.com/john-lasseter-takes-leave-from-pixar-apologizes-for-u-1820654668

 

trigger warning,Nick Carter too

 

Regarding Evan, Petal tweeted this earlier:

 

this was a tough read, feel truly horrible for what she went through and hope she's able to find some comfort in coming forward now

 

Here's an interesting question.

Is it intellectually dishonest to denounce these bands given public knowledge of their vices, but not apply the same socially critical lens to "classics" like The Beatles when it comes to abuse of women; or The Smiths when it comes to unsavory social attitudes?

Is it considered more normalized when it was "part of an older era" that wasn't as conscious of these issues? Or should we start being more revisionist about music in the past and the influence it has as well?

 

I mean there are certain "classic rock" songs that can be hard to listen to now, Brown Sugar is kinda gross and Mötley Crüe, Guns N Roses etc can be pretty misogynistic, and the n word in that Patti Smith song and Oliver's Army and the f word in Money For Nothing and Fairytale Of New York always make me feel uncomfortable

 

Heads up, PTV dude is innocent. Girls story has fell through

 

Where is this information coming from? The Skype pictures with his exact tattoos were pretty damning I’d think

 

Follow the girl closely. She had tweets that contradict everything she said.

Honestly if he was guilty, I wouldn't even he shocked or angry that I used to be in to them.

 

just came to post this article, this is an important piece

 

What Do We Do with the Art of Monstrous Men?

Excellent read.

 

It felt like I was reading "50 Shades of Grey" going through that Nick Carter allegation.

 

"It is an intimate relationship, the one between fan and artist, and when the artist abuses that power, it takes all legitimacy out of music that shapes you."

 

a couple of thoughts i have here:

a running list of accounts is one thing and is good to have as reference, but i've seen little conversation in this thread so far about how to look out for people/be accountable/maybe be preventative. i'm very interested in turning the focus back on community and what we can do other than pat ourselves on the back for talking about how bad it is that these people were doing such awful things to other people. (it's good to know who not to give our money to anymore, however)

how have fans been complicit in these scenarios? have we been treating people this way in our scenes ourselves? have we created a space where people even felt safe to talk about this until now? how do we now make sure that people are no longer afraid to speak up about this type of thing?

also, the focus of "men assaulting women" makes me slightly wary when i think this whole thing is also generally "people with power systemically abusing and assaulting people with less power". gendering the conversation has made sense in the context and of the stories that have been coming out and i think it is necessary to talk about the inherent power structure men have over non-men in our scenes, but it also minimizes the fact that there are people who aren't cis men abusing people/there are cis men being abused/ etc.

looking forward to a world where maybe we're all treating each other better

 

this post is important and this is more of what i was hoping for this thread to be.

 

we’ll see how this goes...

 

Can they please just fuck off forever my god

 

Bold strategy, cotton