Accountability in Music • Page 320

Discussion in 'Music Forum' started by OhTheWater, Nov 14, 2017.

  1. ncarrab

    Trusted

    This x 100
     
    dylan and supernovagirl like this.
  2. yung_ting

    Trusted

    Im going to try to never post in here again, but I do think it’s interesting that the thread seems to be 60% call outs, 39% arguing with eachother and maybe 1% honestly reckoning with rehabilitation/ways to move forward both for the listener and the artist so I’m not sure what we’re accomplishing in here at all anymore. It’s devolved into such black and white thinking without any nuance or context, just a race to throw everyone in the cancellation pile and it becomes easier and easier to put someone being inappropriately pushy in a relationship into the same category as someone grooming children. Things exist on a spectrum, and I rarely see that reflected here.

    Anyone who has interacted with me at any length will know I care deeply about these issues, but when the answer is to either fire the perpetrator into the sun or yell at each other for multiple pages at a time, it does no good. This should really be restructured as an awareness thread. Accountability is (to me) generally centred around the idea of eventual progress, and I don’t think the discussion here has any room for that.
     
  3. CarpetElf

    kill all birds Prestigious

    This discussion started with a woman saying they feel uncomfortable in here because of the tendency to immediately lump people in with defensive apologists and shitty people and the overwhelming response has been to immediately lump her in with defensive apologists and shitty people. That's not great, guys.
     
  4. supernovagirl

    Poetic and noble land mermaid

    I feel genuinely very confused and like I’m looking at a different thread than some of y’all so I’m definitely gonna take a step back and observe for a while and maybe re-re-read for more context
     
    dylan, Anthony_, CoffeeEyes17 and 2 others like this.
  5. Yeah, that's a big issue for sure. I think (and I'm stealing from a conversation I had with someone else earlier), part of the trouble is dealing with what "accountability" is and means. What, by and large, we want is to hold the person that did the shitty thing accountable. But, we have very little to no power to actually do that in many of these situations, so, that leads to frustration, and a lack of power, and to try and regain that power or feel like we're doing something to help, so that can lead to wanting to hold forum posters "accountable" for continuing to listen to or discuss a band, because those are the only people we may actually be able to "hold accountable." And, like was discussed before by multiple people, it ends up where the people that actually are trying to work through their own feelings about problematic behavior and its relationship to art they love, with people that actively do not care about survivors or people harmed, and they get put into the same bucket. And people that maybe are very early on in the learning process of what all of this is, or could mean, end up being written off so early on in the process as bad. Which, in my view, ends up hurting the end goal of trying to educate expand the minds of those in the music scene. I don't have the answer, but I agree with nohandstoholdonto about feeling like a good faith discussion about these issues includes a place for mistakes, for growth, for pain, and to feel safe enough to ask questions or try and walk through a difficult moral issue without feeling like you'll be attacked for doing so.
     
  6. supernovagirl Aug 29, 2019
    (Last edited: Aug 29, 2019)
    supernovagirl

    Poetic and noble land mermaid

    It’s so disheartening to see leerkats post largely ignored or outright shunned for being too “aggressive” and written off as toxic. There was a LOT of really important and relevant points in there that got ignored by most of the people who came around saying that there are people getting ignored/talked over?

    Like. Leerkats post looked largely identical to the kind of discourse happening in feminist circles surrounding this topic. And almost all of the people piling against it are (as far as I know?) straight white men. So like. What does that tell you?
     
  7. ImAMetaphor

    so much I think Prestigious

    For the record, everything said here is pretty much what I was going for with my posts. I understand I probably could have come across more articulately, but it felt like the thread turned into me, nohandstoholdonto, DarkHotline, and some others versus everyone else. Which sucks. And is deeply counterproductive. And unnecessary.

    If we can’t allow people to grow here, it probably shouldn’t exist.


    (That/this isn’t directed at you Jason, I’m just bouncing off your ideas)
     
  8. OhTheWater

    Let it run Supporter

    I’ve defended and advocated for leerkat for many years on this website and agree with a lot of their points. I was not calling them out specifically

    But if we’re getting into that, sure. I’ll step down from posting anymore about it. Apologies to all that I have offended
     
    Carrow likes this.
  9. ImAMetaphor

    so much I think Prestigious

    I do truly apologize for the way I responded to Leerkat’s post. There are vital points being made in there, and to reduce them only to the things I didn’t like about it isn’t fair. I’m not going to go back and respond to it now because I don’t believe they want to interact with me or this thread any further.
     
    supernovagirl likes this.
  10. supernovagirl

    Poetic and noble land mermaid

    like y’all I don’t know what to tell you. This discourse is messy. It’s complex. It’s angering and frustrating. That’s going to happen. There are gong to be hurt feelings because people can’t parse the difference between their actions/words being called out and THEM being called out.

    I’ve never once seen the sentiment that a user should be “cancelled” because they dared to bring up a facet of a nuanced topic like this. A small percentage of users might respond with “hostility” but overall there IS room to grow here and people have been educated over and over and over again so I really am having a hard time grasping this idea that this is apparently a space where people can’t even say anything.

    Sure we could all get better at focusing the call-out on the behavior/words and not the person, And we should work on that. But we should also work on hearing people who are calling out, even and especially if it isn’t worded in a nice and palatable way.
     
    Mary V, Anthony_, ImAMetaphor and 5 others like this.
  11. Because there are times when it's been far more than just actions or words being called out, where it's gotten very personal, where people have been ganged up on, and off, this website.

    I have. Quite a few times. I've seen people mocked and called names for things they once said, no matter how much they've tried to change or grow as person. And it's clear from multiple people posting in this thread that they also have seen, or felt this way. And there's people, even right now, that have reached out to me that don't want to say anything in this thread. Hell, I started this conversation with Anna and Kayla yesterday in a place where I felt safe for this very reason. Because I am afraid of fumbling through something the wrong way in public and not having a belief in a good faith discussion about it.

    This is arguing against a different argument though, and not the one that was brought up as the catalyst. Calling someone out for doing something problematic is a lot different than the issues that started this discussion, and where those feelings came from.
     
  12. Anthony_ Aug 29, 2019
    (Last edited: Aug 29, 2019)
    Anthony_

    A Dork Prestigious

    I haven't seen anyone putting people who are honestly trying to engage with these issues in good faith into the same category as the bad faith actors. Not once, whether it's in here or elsewhere, and I've seen a great many of these types of conversations take place. Like many have said today and like many have said in the past, what someone does or needs to do in their private time is their own business. Nobody should feel ashamed for doing something like pirating BN's music or even streaming it on Spotify or something; the artists don't see much from those streams anyway. It's your own prerogative. Do what you need to do to get through the day.

    But far too often people on this site go further and continue trying to talk about these artists, or just their art, in positive terms following allegations of abuse. And yeah, not everyone is educated from the start. Totally understandable. But the default setting for far too many people is to defend these artists from being criticized by either redirecting conversation to the music or by directly attacking the people trying to raise awareness. And I get that not everyone is wired the same way and people react to that kind of news differently, it's possible for someone to mess up royally and need to be educated in less-than-polite terms. And if those people accept the criticism and learn and don't repeat the mistake, they deserve a second chance. Keyword: second.

    There are far too many people on this site who are on their third, fourth, fifth, tenth, twentieth, etc. time "making a mistake" and honestly I'm sorry but I'm not here for that. If someone screws up and apologizes and is a positive voice in the community from then on then that's great and I support them 100%. But I don't have the patience to go through it more than once with any given person, nor should I or anyone else for that matter. And the fact that I see a lot of those kinds of people in here liking posts like nohandstoholdonto's (which is not their fault by any means) is frustrating because I know they are trying to twist the words in that post to suit their own ends. I've seen it happen before. It's happening in here too.

    So honestly I'm really confused by everything I've read in here yesterday and today. I'm struggling to understand why, for example, someone who describes the Pinegrove allegations as "a messy personal relationship" is liking posts saying we need to be more sympathetic to good faith actors. That person is demonstrably not a good faith actor after having doubled down on that incredibly problematic statement more than once.

    I'm not trying to make anyone uncomfortable who hasn't done something to warrant it, and if I have done so then I'm sorry. But when I say something like "ESH doesn't deserve his platform back" or "JL is a monster who should be exiled from society forevever", I'm just talking about that artist, not passing judgment on anyone on this site for privately listening to them. When I tell someone that they're glossing over allegations or call someone out for being an abuse apologist, I am only talking to that specific person or persons, not anyone else who isn't involved, or is lurking, or is trying to engage in good faith. I would never attack someone trying to work out their feelings in good faith and/or trying to better themselves or be educated.

    In the end, I don't know what the solution to the problem Dylan brought up earlier is. I can put a disclaimer in my posts as a reminder of how I feel about this issue if that would help. Other than that I'm at a loss.
     
    supernovagirl likes this.
  13. ImAMetaphor

    so much I think Prestigious

    This isn’t what was happening in here yesterday. At least not in the conversation I was a part of. It wasn’t about praise, and not even (for me, wont speak for anyone else) about fearing getting “cancelled” for listening to problematic artists. I mean, I don’t listen to BN or PG anymore and haven’t since the allegations came out. The conversation I was having with some others was strictly and solely about how bands like that can still occupy part of our mind and our thinking, even if we’ve consciously decided to let them go. It was about the ongoing struggle to sever ties with artists we spent years, sometimes decades loving. And it felt like that *specific* conversation got a hostile response, and why I felt the need to go on the defensive.
     
  14. Anthony_

    A Dork Prestigious

    I'm not talking about what happened yesterday. I'm talking about the original conversation, which was about how good faith actors often feel uncomfortable about the language used when the bad faith actors are getting called out.

    I said in my post I never attack people engaging in good faith and I meant it.
     
  15. supernovagirl

    Poetic and noble land mermaid

    Okay well I guess we’ll just chalk that up to me not seeing it despite being an active participant in this thread and website. If people are being ganged up off this website how would anyone here in this thread even know that? Like my post is explicitly about the conversations happening within this thread and the past few days. I didn’t think I had to add the disclaimer that I don’t think it’s okay to harass someone or take something off-site.
    I understand your fear but at the same time I really don’t because you HAVE fumbled through things the wrong way in the past and you WERE called out and then, I like to think, tried harder/did better. And no one wrote you off or “cancelled” you.
    I honestly think this type of argument is a weird straw man not too far off from “guys just are afraid to say anything to women anymore because it will just be taken as sexual harassment!” Like to me it’s the same line of thinking.
    Yes there’s always going to be a FEW users who respond with disagreement or hostility but acting like this website hasn’t been a place for people to actively make mistakes and better themselves and be widely still accepted, is patently false.


    That last part of my post was about specifically posts like leerkats being ignored. So no it’s not about a different argument, just more of a continuation from my previous post about their post.
     
  16. ImAMetaphor

    so much I think Prestigious

    See, I feel like so much of the argument in here this morning has been a product of miscommunication and misunderstanding, because I literally had to go back several pages to remember/find what you’re talking about here. And maybe that’s my bad, because all of my posts in the past like 12 hours are only about that specific conversation I mentioned. So much has happened in here that I literally forgot about the original conversation. So if the people I perceived as showing aggression to me today were mostly talking about that, I should apologize, because I misread what was going on
     
  17. Anthony_

    A Dork Prestigious

    I can't speak for anyone else but me.
     
  18. ImAMetaphor

    so much I think Prestigious

    I know that, but at this point it seems like none of us know entirely what we’re arguing about, so I’m just trying to get some clarity.
     
  19. I don't know what to tell you beside I, and many others, have seen it, and are saying we've seen it in this thread. And, I know at least a few people in this thread know about it because I've seen it posted in other threads they're in. Including, if memory serves, this one itself at least once or twice.

    I don't know what to say if you don't understand my, or anyone else's, fear of an actual good faith discussion. It's real even if you don't understand it. Multiple people have tried to explain it and talk about it, and that it is being denied as a real emotion people are feeling, is something I don't know how to respond to. I will say that my privilege of, well, literally owning this website, offers me protection in a way many of the people talking about this do not have. So, when I'm saying I don't trust a good faith discussion in certain settings and situations, I do so knowing I can handle just about anything thrown at me after 20 years of being online, on my own website, and therefore I can absolutely emphasize with people who feel similarly that do not have that built-in-protection. I don't know how to talk anymore about something multiple people are saying is their truth, and what they feel and are seeing and how it's actively hurting them, if it's not accepted as happening.
     
  20. supernovagirl

    Poetic and noble land mermaid

    ...I literally just said we’ll chalk it up to me not seeing it so I don’t know what you expect me to say here.
    I’m not at all denying that it’s a real feeling other people fear, in fact I directly said I understand that fear. But I also said that, as owner with that privilege you just described, you’ve been given plenty of grace to make mistakes so I don’t know.

    The only thing I said “isn’t happening” is people being outright cancelled or ostracized over one wrong conversation or mistake (particularly “in good faith”) I’ve never seen that happen and I’m all ears for any specific examples anyone wants to bring up. I also specifically said, again, that I’ll chalk it up to me not seeing it happen so please do not imply that I’m “not accepting it as happening”
     
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  21. BoldTitan

    Trusted

    I am honestly trying to empathize with the situation and where you are coming from. I can see where that comment in various contexts could be seen as lessening or discrediting, I just personally, based on the facts and cloudiness that has been laid out, after asking multiple times for more context or understanding of the situation, and being told it's none of my business and it doesn't matter what transpired, don't feel comfortable labeling it with any specificities beyond a messy personal relationship. (Which is a vague description that could be applied to anything from an unhealthy toxic relationship to various levels of abuses...in my opinion.... because I sincerely have no idea what went down)

    I am not at all trying to take away or lessen the severity of issues. Maybe it's a semantics issue. I'm not sure what else would be satisfactory given the clouded situation.

    I understand you believe me to be a bad faith actor and that I don't have a right to like posts from people who are wanting resolutions moving forward, but I don't think that is constructive or a fair representation of my beliefs when I've tried to be nothing but civil and understanding.
     
  22. Anthony_ Aug 29, 2019
    (Last edited: Aug 29, 2019)
    Anthony_

    A Dork Prestigious

    People have told you where to look. Go read the Skylight thread from back last fall. You choosing not to do the work is not on me. For at least the tenth time, stop calling it a messy personal relationship.

    In the interest of not derailing this thread, I’m not engaging with any of the other statements in this post.
     
  23. sophos34

    Prestigious Prestigious

    well this thread has become impossible to read without being triggered so I will never open it again
     
    tyramail likes this.
  24. I don't think anyone said it was over one wrong conversation, or mistake, but instead a feeling that this thread, and others, can put off. I'll quote from the original post again:
    I really just don’t think it’s doing the good that some of y’all think it is to simply write off or shame anyone who decides to talk about the band’s music. There are times where, yes, it’s beneficial to be curt and take hard stances, but far too often I’ve seen it used in a way (especially by men, and ESPECIALLY by white men who end up taking up far too much real estate in these discussions tbh) that’s in its own way harmful and borderline abusive.
    And:
    I think it’s gross and very far from what this thread was supposed to be (or maybe just imo *should be* to use this thread as a place to take shots at other members of the site, however veiled they may be.

    The was User XYZ actually canceled and do they deserve the continual attacks they get discussion, I think, is less important than the discussion about the chilling effect that it has had on multiple members of the community, as evidenced by their posts, like the quoted and many, many others.
     
    ItsAndrew likes this.
  25. supernovagirl

    Poetic and noble land mermaid

    I liked that original post. Why? Because I agree with the majority of it. I don’t feel that anything that I said contradicts nohands’ post.

    I also never once implied that anyone deserved continued attacks they are getting so what “discussion” are you pointing to? Not the one you and I aren’t having.

    I feel like you’re genuinely twisting what I’m saying in order to be defensive about it and I don’t know what else to say other than we don’t need to do this back and forth. It’s also frustrating to feel that huge chunks of my posts or whole posts are ignored in favor of this defensive approach.
     
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