Accountability in Music • Page 206

I just learned this a few days ago myself, when this news first came out, but Andrew uses they/them pronouns.

 

I have a laundry list of dudes who were super helpful and friendly until I wasn't interested in them that way. Just about every woman I know well enough to talk about this stuff does. It's really depressing how normalized it is, these aren't even people I label as "problematic" (even though the behavior is abhorrent and has absolutely set me back) because my threshold is too high for that. You'd be labeling too many people and then nobody gets held accountable.

 

Yeah, my old (male) bandmates did this to me on the regular. I still have neurosis about my guitar and music in general over it.

 

hey remember that time ryan adams got a guy in the strokes addicted to heroin?

 

This is kind of off topic, but something that really annoys me and has been on my mind about the separating art from the artists argument (apart from just the obvious way it is used to defend bad people) is that I'm sure the same people who use that logic also get irrationally angry about someone like Cardi B using co-writes, which shouldn't be a problem to you if you only care about the end product, not who made it.

Music is just way too personal of a thing to use that argument with.

 

Ugh, Ryan's music legitimately saved my life after my father died in 2015. This is such a blow, first artist i've held close to my heart that has had a scandal. I knew he was an abrasive guy, be it because he was an alcoholic or whatever. But this stuff is incredibly inexcusable.


Damn...

 

What I've noticed: tpically they just want to separate abusive behavior from artists they like (you know, behaviors they'd prefer stay normalized) and will pick really arbitrary hills to die on like the one you're talking about that have a lot more to do with gatekeeping than actual concern for the purity of art.

Edit: They also generally find it in their hearts to hold members of marginalized communities accountable way before anyone else, somehow.

 

It’s amazing how much I don’t know.

 

When it comes to artists who write deeply personal material I just don’t see how you can really separate their art from who they are. That doesn’t mean there aren’t ways for individual people to reckon with that and listen to whatever they want to, but for me after stuff like this happens I find it impossible to listen to artists the way I used to. I never listen to brand new or Kanye anymore for this reason

 

Yep I'd agree with all that, it's just a clear attempt to not actually have to hold your faves accountable and also have a way like you said to keep out people you think aren't worthy.

 

This is a really good point and I honestly don't know how to deal with it. I have a lot of love for many of the artists that Dr Luke has worked with. I want to support the artists, especially after what they've been through but his involvement sours everything.

 

What's worse is Ryan is gonna have an awful response to this.

 

so fucked up - heart breaks for all those women fuck Ryan Adams

 

Sorry you were treated that way

 

I think even if you are able to reckon with it in private that's one thing, but then there is absolutely no need to come online and interrupt conversations about these things to tell everyone that you can separate art from the artists. Like if you insist on listening to Brand New, despite knowing who Jesse is and what he's done and what those songs are about, just do so in private, you don't need to voice public support for them and get into the middle of conversations to voice that.

 

I feel like that is just scratching the surface to him denying things

 

WHY would Phoebe make that stuff up Ryan, come on..

 

Just fucking awful.

 

Music is a product of the artist in the most personal way, an intrinsic link that is not mutually exclusive. Saying that one can separate the artist from their music is only a cover so they can pretend that listening to the product of the artist is in no way the same as supporting their behaviors. But in this case, the product itself is very much a support of their behaviors, since he wielded it as a weapon in all of these cases.

That aside, even if one wasn't directly using their creative output in that way, their creative output is still a direct result and descendent of them. Regardless of whether or not you are putting money behind those actions, your acknowledgement of something created within the space they abused in is in and of itself a validation.

 

For me on that specific issue is I guess whether they worked with him before or after it became known what he'd done, but since he is not the actual voice of the song at the end of the day (and also cus I really don't follow production credits for most pop songs so I don't really know what songs are his) it makes it more acceptable in my book. If that makes sense. But I'd also understand someone cutting those songs out, this is just my take.

 

If I think the material is well written, I’m not going to stop listening to it. People say that art is “deeply personal” or whatever, but it’s really not. I don’t listen to a Ryan Adams song because I care about the life and times of Ryan Adams or the sorrows he feels. The songs could have literally been written by anyone and I’d objectively analyze it the exact same. The lyrics, songwriting, melodies, etc would all do the exact same in terms of impact regardless of who wrote it. I have zero emotional attachment to the writer of the song and all of it to the actual song itself. Ryan Adams’ life does not mean anything to me when I listen to his songs.

Likewise, one of my favorite songs of 2017, Motion Sickness, is literally about how much of a raging asshole Ryan Adams is. I fucking love that song because of how great the songwriting is, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the real-life circumstances surrounding the song and everything to do with chords, melodies, production elements, etc.

So, no, I don’t buy this argument that Art is deeply personal and I have to care about the people who made it. I don’t care about them before they do bad things, and I equally care as little about them after they do bad things. I will never stop listening to a quality song just because the person who made it is a bad person — no matter how bad the person is or how little I even like the song. To others who also have the ability to do so, I commend you.

 

Eh, I appreciate that and I'm sure there's no not awkward way to respond to statements like the one I made haha - I'm not looking for sympathy though, just emphasizing how frequently stuff like that happens and how relatable it was.

These women just deserved so much better and I'm so sad for them.

 

It's tough with Luke or Phil Spector because the people who were abused were the people whose music they made

 

It’s gonna be one of those nights huh