Accountability in Music • Page 196

I’m not sure exactly how I feel on all of this, but how does everyone suggest we bridge that gap? if male bands are seeking out female bands but those women don’t want to accept because that band hasn’t put in more work previously to tour with female bands, doesn’t that seem like a stalemate? What do we do at that point to make progress?

 

It’s not really a stalemate, men with positions to book these tours should put more effort into avoiding all male lineups.

 

Was also incredibly weird that people’s main argument protecting movements was “well we need to support more women at grassroots to see them there yelling isn’t gonna do anything if you don’t support them” and that’s all well and good except that it was being told to small bands and bookers and so on who....do these things. they are the ones pushing forward and they are the ones who are denied opportunities over and over again and uplifting their friends. the canceled kississippi tour had gobbinjr on a handful of dates where the singer emma has a rotating cast of backing musicians, plays in fits, and does sound and booking in the nyc area. they contracted illustrated alexis politis for a poster. those are my few quick examples.

A conversation about tokenization can be had but comes off as derailing when women in the music industry are trying to have a discussion about their lack of opportunities. Of course you shouldnt book anyone just to fill a quota, and discussions have been had about what that looks like (the single acoustic opener on a five band bill despite being more experienced and having more draw than those playing after her, bands deciding to add a woman on keyboardist doing harmonies for marketing but wouldnt let any woman play guitar or drums) but that different from actively questioning if you are working to counteract your biases and examine if you are giving equal opportunities. if every other movements tour was pretty equal and they had been known from that and this tour just didnt work out i dont think it would be as frustrating, and to be fair no one even went at them that hard, but trying to cite the like five individual women theyre toured with on musician or crew as reason why they cant take any criticism sucks.

it bothered me also that people kept saying "you don't know how the industry works" because the people who initiated this discussion were bands themselves and people who have worked in booking or at venues (the very first tweet was by a visual artist who works within the Atlanta scene) they definitely do know what its like. And not talking about the first twitter that was posted here, but the amount of time I see people be like "what about crew backstage" and their header picture is an end of tour picture with them as the only women and 49 cishet white dudes I'm like....that's not much better I'm not gonna congratulate a band for that.

this situation specifically frustrated me because there was so much trying to take away from legit complaints. the fact that the original poster had to clarify that she did not actually want them to tour with the dixie chicks when she made a joke about it shows the level of willfull ignorance/purposeful misunderstanding to make it seem like its irrational women throwing a fit

 

Way I see it, there's two options. Either non-men create their own sub-industry (which already happens to a certain extent but tends to not crossover into mixed audiences so it doesn't really solve the core issue which is the overall cultural problem) or men have to be persistent. It's like any other issue... men have to keep respectfully and earnestly trying (which means picking bands whose sounds work with yours and you genuinely want to work with) because it's the right thing to do, and eventually the walls will start to break down. Diverse behind the scenes tour staff helps too. It's venues, booking agents, managers, all of it. Without making that the focus, the onus of change falls on the people who are being subjugated and that doesn't work.

Sure, women will turn down tours. But for every great non-men band that turns a tour down, which they should be ALLOWED TO DO WITHOUT IT REFLECTING ON THE POPULATION AS A WHOLE, there are ten who were never asked. That boils down to fan culture as well as the industry itself. It's systemic and there's no "magic" answer. The culture needs to shift and that takes concentrated effort from the decision makers.

 

some things that can also change is just like, properly doing the research. most of tokenization comes from people seeing a woman and going " this will work", instead of actually looking for work they enjoy and want to cultivate. Look at the bands you currently listen to, see the related artists and see if any come up that are outside of that typical demographic and give them a listen to see if you like them. see a promoter or booker that hosts a lot of the shows that you go to and see what else they have coming up and go check out a show or two. asks your friends who they enjoyed working with, look at the photographers and illustrators doing visual art for music and see what stands out to you and see if theyre looking for some freelance work/commissions. if theyre not, maybe theyre promoting someone who is. bring out non profits if you are able too, especially those dedicated on safety. ask who they have worked with or crew members they have met on other tours.

most of it really comes down to opening up who you're networking to instead of sticking with the same boys club thats been cultivated.

also, if youre a big band who will draw well regardless of who is with you, take a chance on a small band who is great but needs exposure.

 

This all makes a lot of sense. I always appreciate your responses. Also, I completely understand non-men bands not wanting to partake and 100% believe they have every right to do so without being negatively looked at. I was mostly just asking out of curiosity sake what people’s suggestions to fix this were, I didn’t mean to come across that these non-men bands should do tours offered to them no matter what, if that was the case.

 

I went and saw Camp Cope this past summer, and they chose to tour with only women - they brought Petal, and had Sidney Gish open on the date I was at. It was a night with only women on stage, something I am not sure I can say I've ever seen before. And they got on stage and talked about some shit. They called men out. They said here we are, listen to what we have to say. There were guys around me that were grumbly and put out by it - sorry not sorry dude. This is what women feel like every day when guys get on stage and moan into their microphones about how awful women are after their ex breaks up with them. Except it's not even equivalent - because Camp Cope were trying to expose something insidious and wrong in our society. Yeah it's uncomfortable to confront the internalized prejudices we may have or to learn how to shut up and pay attention when there's something that needs to be said that we don't want to hear. But doing what Camp Cope did, putting a tour full of entirely women on stage and saying we're here and we don't give a fuck about how uncomfortable it makes you, and not only are we going to do this but we are going to do it loudly and in your face, is important.

Camp Cope leveraged a tour with only women and used whatever power they had to practice what they preached and that's important. It's only part of the game, but I hope it sets an example. The problem is that not every band has the reach to say "this is what we are doing." And I am a Movements fan, met Pat and hung out with some of the Movements guys, and think they're kind people. I really think they want to do the right thing. But they didn't in this case, and I hope, ultimately, that they come away from this with a better understanding of how they can use their influence in the scene to elevate marginalized communities for the better.

 

^^ all of this and, im posting a lot, but would like to add

that lineup, as well as two other shows i saw this year, had acts where women were in at least every band. one of my favorites being a one-off with adult mom/sammus/long neck/goodie. it is almost stark the difference in comfort i felt at those shows. i knew that even tho, as you said, there were grumbly men, there were more people i could reach out to if something went wrong than vice versa. you dont have to worry about starting the conversation needed for your comfort because it was already started. and as someone who has been attending concerts since i was 14, its something i didnt even realize i was missing until i had it. but it was the first time i went to a show and didnt really feel like my existance needed permission.

Obviously theres more to the conversation, especially with how actual workers are treated, but thought id add that on. and like, i think having conversations with favorite all-male bands about these issues should be encouraged. no one is saying drop them, just something along the lines of "excited to see you play this tour, many of great acts on this lineup but id love to see more representation next time. have you checked out (x band) or (y band)? theyre really great live and i think would work well on a tour"

 

You 100% hit the nail on the head. All the grumbly dudes were outnumbered by all those who so clearly gravitated towards these artists who are obviously open to creating spaces for us. I was overall at ease with the crowd and at one point during Petal's set, when Kiley was opening up about some mental health issues she struggled with, was overcome with emotion and had to step outside because it was actually a wave of realization at once about a lot of things - femininity, queer identity, mental health, all able to be recognized within the confines of the safe space carved out by these women. I've been going to shows for over 15 years and it is exactly like you said - something I didn't realize I needed until I had it. It's a feeling I get only at certain shows and only with certain artists.

Which is why when I discovered Paramore my mind was absolutely blown that a girl my age could be - in a pop punk band? Defying all traditional gender norms, wearing skinny jeans and dying her hair? It took me a long time to realize why Hayley was so important to me - it's because, like that night at the Camp Cope show, I looked at someone like me and saw them carve out a space besides themselves - for me and all those like me.

 

All of this, exactly.

 

Not relevant to current discussion but I feel disheartened by the r kelly collaborators coming out of the woodwork to apologize. Its bothering me cause the ones I've read all mention how horrifying these allegations are like they just learned of them when idk how that's possible. Idk I'm 26 and I just remember the Kelly talk being so pervasive even before I was more tuned into pop culture like, similar to Woody Allen, I don't even remember when I learned they were awful I just learned it early on in life through the cultural conversation without seeking it out. It feels so disingenuous instead of admitting they all knew of the allegations and just dgaf

 

Chances response feels more real in comparison.

“Yeah I knew he was an abuser but I never thought to care about the women he was abusing.”

 

I feel like I am losing it or something. Macklemores thrift shop song was huge and it reference the r Kelly pee thing. I've seen some people say it barely got coverage in the media at the time but I remember it being all over the place, unfortunately more as a joke than actual concern but in the media none the less and I definitely remember knowing it was an underage girl.

 

I’ve remembered this since I was in like high school... and I’m 32 now so you def aren’t crazy

 

I absolutely knew about the r kelly pee thing when I was a child. I’m not sure if I knew the girl was underage but the pee story was definitely widely known

 

Confession: The whole R. Kelly documentary made me aware that "I believe I can fly" was NOT written/performed by Tom Petty, because it is indeed a different song from "Free Fallin'"

 

Dave Chappelle did an entire skit of how he tried to write it off because of how much he loves Robert's work in 2003, I think we did a really shitty job showing it as statutory and it was definitely laughed off for too long

I'm trying to remember when I heard he secretly married Aaliyah but at least 5 years probably more

 

honestly I watched so many of those VH1 Pop culture shows growing up I think I just picked up a ton of stuff from there and don't even remember when. Most of it was def played for laughs by outdated comedians

 

It was more of a joke than a concern, that's how it entered popular culture and it never got more serious, even if people knew the victim was underage. Its fucked.

 

It’s definitely been out there. I also had heard of it but do t really remember the underage stuff, but that’s probably more cus I didn’t realize how much that part mattered in middle school or whenever when no one was making a big deal about it, so I probably didn’t commit it to memory.

Society as a whole really overlooked this too long. That’s kind of why it’s weird to me that people are going at Lady Gaga, Chance, Phoenix, or whoever. Not that they were right to work with him, but no one else was taking it seriously either. (Unless it’s known that they knew more or something). I’m just glad that everyone is finally listening. I’m not sure how he made it past that article that was posted a year or so ago about this.

 

The brutal truth:

I knew about R.Kelly’s sexual assault/rape when I was in high school in 2002. In fact, it’s the reason I heard about who R.Kelly was in the first place. It wasn’t just on MTV; it was on every cable news channel, in magazines, and the story was broken by a major newspaper in Chicago. No one didn’t know about it.

Between 2003-2015, R.Kelly released nine albums. The lowest charting album in its first week debuted at #16. Two of the albums - the ones released right after the scandal broke - went 3x platinum. Two others also sold more than a million copies. Every single one was a commercial success.

There were always - always - people like those on this board who cared and spoke up. But millions upon millions of folks never cared. THAT is why Lady Gaga and the rest worked with him - the American people determined that working with him was good for a person’s career. And quite frankly, every person who bought an R.Kelly album and went to a show, knowing full well who he was, needs to reckon with who they are as people well before they talk about the other artists who worked with him. This is a business; music fans collectively made R.Kelly into a hot commodity, knowing full well who he was. And had they/we (the collective ‘we’ of society) not done that, there would have been no collaborations by the folks now apologizing to us.

 

Mute R Kelly only started in earnest last year, not absolving people of blame for working with him but a bit hypocritical because I didn't fully stop listening to his music or watching Woody Allen movies until a few years ago
And I get it it's way easier to get mad at Gaga or Mariah then to process how much he got away with and how much had to happen to allow and facilitate that

 

I do feel like the two apologies I’ve seen so far (Gaga, Phoenix) seem slightly disingenuous because there’s just no way they were unaware of his shitty wrap. Sure, they probably didn’t know the severity, but they should have known better anyway. But I guess I would also rather them apologize and say hey this was fucked up rather than continuing to stay silent.

 

I just feel like it’s weird to say Lady Gaga’s apology isn’t genuine given just how much she has spoken out about sexual assault and who she has shown herself to be. And I think if she really takes the song down she is putting her money where her mouth is. Idk honestly maybe I’m just being too defensive towards her

 

Also weird since she removed r Kelly from the radio version of that song, which is at least better than the gazillion artists who couldn't even do that much.