Accountability in Music • Page 185

Lol dang totally didn't mean to incite anything. As already said, I was def referring to men in regards to things like sexism where I'm sorry like even the wokest cis men get on some bs sometimes and are dumb about it because they will never fully grasp it having never lived it. And also I was like half facetious but also annoyed that men who hold such high influence and praise (espesh someone like Matty who is in a band that is often revered on here) can say such ignorant things with their platforms. and that doesn't mean I think he's a garbage through and through trash person who doesn't also say good or relatable thing sometimes, but like yeah in this context he is not smart or knowledgeable and many men are unfortunately not. And yeah I can say *SOME WOMEN ARE NOT SMART IN THIS AREA TOO but the Dynamics of that is different and also this convo is about the dumb thing a man did

 

Oh and it's also telling that a conversation around a ignorant and dumb thing a man did is getting derailed by focusing on a comment a woman made. Just kinda typical but alas LOL.

 

Men are dumb. Can confirm; am man.

There's just different types and levels of dumb, and based on context I can figure out which type/level of dumb Kiana was referring to so it didn't bother me

 

Couldn't agree more, so: as for the interview quote - there's a LOT to unpack about that mess of an answer but to me, it's a cautionary tale about putting artists on pedestals because we like their art. Which the 1975 absolutely has been over the past few days - it's inescapable.

Not referring to "cancelling", because even if that's what I believed was called for (I absolutely don't) it doesn't happen to cishet white male musicians on pedestals over stuff like this so it'd be a waste of energy. (On an individual basis? Absolutely. You can dislike an artist and refuse to engage with them for quite literally any reason and no one can stop you. Personally, it DOES make it harder for me to care enough to engage with the art. Not impossible, the album was fine. But it prompts me to automatically roll my eyes when I hear the dude's name and as a woman in rock who experiences misogyny on the regular and as someone who is tired of men in rock believing they're somehow superior to the men of hip hop/rap (ahem), I have no qualms about admitting that.)

But this isn't the first time he's been off base about stuff like this, and that's why it's important that we talk about it. Provides crucial context for why the art isn't universal no matter how much some people love it, and why the critical worship that's surrounding this record release rubs some folks the wrong way. These are musicians, not gods. They don't have to be infallible idols to create something that has personal value for the individual. If we expect that of the music we love, we're gonna have a bad time.

This is a thread about accountability, which extends beyond "abusers". We gotta talk about it, that's all.

 

I just can’t wrap my head around the doublespeak on this website sometimes.

If you make a negative sweeping generalization about men, it’s just casual, or even correct.

If you disagree with a female poster, you’re not having a relevant discussion in which you both could learn a different perspective, you’re lecturing a woman.

If you dare challenge anything a female poster says, you’re not searching for the aforementioned perspective, you’re derailing the thread in typical man fashion.

There’s simply no productive conversation to be had when the goalposts constantly move like this.

 

Thread is decent. He seems like he at the very least understands he was being obtuse. It's a great start, and I'm glad he said it.

I'm also glad he finished the thread by saying "please keep calling it out when it happens". I might still roll my eyes a bit, but there's hope.

 

When you’re proving her point with every post, maybe it’s time to log off for a while?

 

wasn't going to say anything, but here we go.

When the women on this site, many of whom have been embroiled in a decade+ long conversation about their ability/worth in this industry, the "sweeping generalizations" you're referencing are often supposed to mean "the patriarchy" or "the system." Kiana is not saying "literally all men who have ever lived are not very smart" - she was taking a shorthand approach and sure, maybe you think it was lazy, but we've been doing this our whole lives. It's exhausting. Sometimes you just want to take the easy way out and say "men are dumb" in response to the millionth instance of tone deaf stupidity in an interview, rather than writing another essay that people aren't going to read or care about. There is plenty of productive conversation happening on this site. It just gets derailed endlessly when people decide to be deliberately obtuse about stuff like this.

 

You started the entire conversation "how are you even allowed to say this on this website." You can't start with that and then bemoan the lack of productive conversation.

 

You’re not trying to have a productive conversation though. You’re not addressing any of the points or quoting people in any meaningful way. You took Kiana’s post about a much larger issue and instead focused on an off-the-cuff comment instead of engaging with her in a meaningful way. She obviously doesn’t need me to defend her but you’re putting on this boo hoo act and willfully trying to misunderstand other posters

EDIT: as always Kayla put it much more eloquently above

 

Is there a way to tag users on this site, so that when I see them post in other threads I can just be like ah yes that’s the doublespeak guy

 

hmmm this one lost some likes from the first go-around

where'd y'all get off to??

 

Kiana's original post was very easy to decipher what she was saying and what she meant. Both from what she wrote, and in context of all her other posts on this same page. And even if you didn't quite get what she was saying, there are infinitely better ways to ask for clarification than what transpired next.

 

I only pop into this thread occasionally, but is it always this much of a shitshow?

 

Were you expecting a thread about abuse and assault within the scene to be lighthearted affair?

 

Tbh yes. And it’s 90% because of dumb, derailing shit like the past few pages.

 

I just gotta say it, and the PC police might come after me, but every single man on the planet is way too sensitive to listen to anything a woman has to say about issues concerning women without getting defensive and inserting themselves and some bullshit distraction into the conversation.

Sorry y’all, just gotta speak the truth, if you need a safe space try six feet underground it’s pretty safe down there.

 

Nah, but I was hoping that people would have an decent conversation about the topic at hand. But it's a lot of personal bullshit & I'm fucking exhausted just reading this stuff.

 

If you think you're exhausted just imagine how tired women are from having this conversation over and over again!

 

To bring us back on topic...

What he said originally was stupid and exactly the kind of thing that's put me off this band for years. However, a thread like this, while still clumsy, is more than most dudes in Our Scene have done in years and years of being assholes about women, race, genre, etc. I'm not trying to give him a cookie for doing the right thing, but this is another thing I've noticed that's different about their press cycle this album- a genuine care for how his words might impact his fans. I would be hard pressed to think of any man in any band I've interacted with in the past few years giving this kind of apology for what's quoted in the article. Especially since I've personally been told to fuck off or be quiet when calling out similar behavior.

 

We can't if people are just automatically like " other people are doing worse things " the second you bring up being disappointed in someone

Like duh saying dumb things and being ignorant that the music industry is dominated by dudes isn't the same as abuse but it's still something we need to talk about if things are going to improve

 

Sums up my feelings nicely. 100% agreed.

 

I hear you and please believe that it's even more exhausting to live this crap. But there's no objective way to navigate subjects that are inherently personal.