Everyone in the conversation has also absolutely been hesitant that this is genuine. Just because we do want him to be a better person doesn't mean that we are "falling for it" Edit: I see Michael mentioned that as well oops
Why is this not argued in the cases of the multitude of other musicians discussed in these forums who have done wrong?
1) it is where the person in question has given us reason to believe they are interested in making amends but 2) most of those people are not, again, in psychosis and surrounded by handlers with agendas
"Whataboutism" or "whataboutery" (as in, "but what about X?") refers to the propaganda strategy of responding to an accusation with a counter-accusation instead of offering an explanation or defense against the original accusation. It is an informal fallacy that the accused party uses to avoid accountability—whether attempting to distract by shifting the conversation's focus away from their behaviour or attempting to justify themselves by pointing to the similar behaviour (which may be true or false, but irrelevant) of their opponent or another party who is not the current subject of discussion.
That said I don't know if Kanye has really even gestured toward restorative justice enough to be discussing it in the context. Mostly I just think people do not understand what psychosis is and what it does to someone. Kanye, as a person susceptible to psychosis, does have a responsibility when he is capable of it to not put himself in a position where if he does enter psychosis he will do harm. He's massively failed at this responsibility. He also has a responsibility to attempt to make amends, although frankly I don't know how someone like him can do that while remaining out of the public, and I think remaining out of the public is more important pursuant to his first responsibility. Still, this is the balancing act. But the attitude of "fuck this guy forever" doesn't track to me. I don't see how you can square that with an accurate understanding of what untreated bipolar can do. And I don't think struggling to continue to take your meds - or stopping taking your meds - is a character flaw or weakness. It seems more like relapse, which is understood as the result of the condition and a natural part of eventually controlling it. This all complicated to another order of magnitude by whatever extent he was/is being manipulated by literal Trump admin goons who ran his "campaign." I guess this could seem like splitting hairs but it's the only view of it that makes any sense to me
I just don’t think it’s beneficial to look at the situation without acknowledging it’s extremely nuanced. None of what I say is me advocating for him to return to his platform, but the general lack of understanding of how serious Bipolar is, the impact of fame and idol culture on such an illness, the amount of people in multiple industries that are complicit in not cutting ties YEARS sooner, etc are all topics that I think are worth at least discussing. There’s a lot of valid reasoning in being skeptical in this statement, but tbh until the album comes out, that date doesn’t really mean anything. I do feel like mentioning music, clothes, etc towards the end does add to the idea that it’s unlikely he would step out of the public eye and it’s likely on some end that he’s angling for the ability to play shows stateside again amongst other things but it’s too early to say whether or not his overall commitment to change is a facade imo, if he feels genuine sorrow and his new treatment is working, the possibility of him listening to others and taking steps to help the communities he’s hurt previously is certainly there, it’s just less likely based on his overall history so the skepticism is understandable. What I don’t think is reasonable is when people who never were a fan or maybe listened casually come in and pat themselves on the back for not doing so, and then add to the guilt of former big fans of his are likely already feeling, as if everyone who once listened to him knew what he would end up doing. I truly think the biggest issue in these threads are the people who actually would rather someone just die than consider the possibility of the person possibly doing some work to undo their damage (this isn’t an exaggeration it’s in the old thread, it might be only a select few but people def said it would be better if he just died, better for everyone, his children being part of that group of course). Sorry for the rambling, it’s hard for me to fully explain my feelings on this and tbh it kind of extends beyond what’s mostly been a solid discussion in here today, just wanted to weigh in while also admitting I’m not the one who is being apologized to so I don’t have the right to decide whether it’s truly meaningful or not and it certainly would have to be just a small step amongst much greater ones in order for any sort of good to come out of this
I will preface this by saying I have never been a kanye listener or fan. I actively disliked his music when he was at his peak. I don't want him to have an artistic redemption arc. I want him to do better as a person, right his wrongs as best he can, and continue down that path. I don't want it for him. I want it for the people in his life, the people he's hurt with his words and his actions, for anyone negatively affected by anything he has done. I believe nobody is beyond redemption. That doesn't mean they deserve the platform they had before they fucked up, it just means that I don't believe the vast majority of people, no matter how awful their beliefs, are beyond redemption. It is well within the rights of any group, such as the Jewish people, to not want to be around him and to not support him. Regardless of that, however, I believe we should allow room for grace and give people the chance to grown. This isn't limited purely to young people. I believe all people should be given the chance to change for the better. If he is putting in the work to become a better person and putting in the work on his mental health? Good.
I think if someone whose shitty behavior was posted in this thread actually, believably sincerely did work that fit within restorative justice, that truly sought to address harm for more than getting sympathy to have a platform again… most in this thread would appreciate that this happened.
Pessimistic take.. but a platform is rarely, if ever, taken away from a person with this amount of resources.
Yep - and as many have already pointed out, even without taking that statement into account, there is precisely a 0% chance of that happening. Best consolation prize is the fact that he usually stays relatively quiet few years at a time until the PR machine starts up again. And then it's unbearable for about a full year.
Also as @Blainer93 pointed out, he had Thanksgiving dinner with Nick Fuentes (and apparently got made at him for playing the Hitler song in a club last week lol), so chances of this being anything for than lip service are, unfortunately, slim. But I will continue to hope he can learn and change his life for the better, if only to set a powerful example.
the most powerful example he could possibly set would involve making amends to a whole lot of people privately, and shutting the fuck up otherwise.
(Fwiw, from what I've seen just because I'm a masochist who finds his career and life trajectory fascinating and and am determined to see it through as a Dr. Manhattan-esque observer, he has been doing that. But again, it's hard to take it seriously if he's still palling around with Nick Fuentes and co.)
No point in asking you to explain because I remember that too, and it's not worth derailing this thread over. (I think about it every time you post, though.)
Everyone is obviously so excited about giving a pass to the horribly mentally ill pop culture icon, but no one wants to give a pass to...Greg. What has this forum even come to, smdh
The Fuentes thing is really disappointing, I had no idea that happened, Sneako was there too, the fact this happened AFTER the Rabbi meeting is crazy too, a little of what i wrote above was kind of written without knowing that, having that info and timeline makes me zone in a lot more on the whole “wanting to make music and clothes” part of this statement and feel like yeah that’s probably what this all is, the more in depth apology being a product of him being willing to sign off on whatever may open up more opportunities for him again