Accountability in Music [ARCHIVED] • Page 84

I’m glad this conversation took a more productive turn (at least from my perspective)
I think we’re all trying to figure out this stuff together and in order to do that sometimes we need to TALK about our controversial feelings and work through them in a productive way. Most of the time, we’re all doing our best here and everyone’s on their own journey of accepting and criticizing problematic shit.
I appreciate seeing varying view points, but I can also see the criticism people are raising as well.
At the end of the day we’re all people trying to make the right choice.
These conversations are tough to have and require a lot of introspection and self-awareness.

 

There's three levels, but it all starts with the fans

Fans should not support abusers

or

artists that work with abusers

or

labels/management/venues/media outlets etc that promote abusers

This is in a perfect world. Because of how fucked the system is this leaves very little recourse for like, enjoying music, the more Kevin Bacon degrees you get involved the hardest it is to support anyone.

I've been at least doing the first ok. Trying to be better at the second but its rough. Lady Gaga made a song with R Kelly and Ariana did a song with Chris Brown, a weird one that wasn't even good and felt like a real label push. She's been way more outspoken about feminist issues and not dealing with bullshit since then. Was that decision out of her control that early in her career? Would she act differently if the situation happened now? It seems to be different than a dude in a band protecting his abuser friend cause they're friends, but that's just because there's less of a direct connection and we don't know the full story. This shit is complicated, there's nuance, I don't want to get down on anyone except in the really obvious cases of clear direct terrible behavior, but I want all of these artists involved to be held to a higher standard. I don't want music to continue to be overrun with abusers. And now that I mention it behind the scenes is probably so much worse, label heads aren't just signing awful people but are likely awful people themselves. The whole system is sick and I'm feeling really sad and my cat just came over so this is it.

 

To kind of return to the “focus” of the thread I’ve been spending a lot of time pondering what to do with problematic art and artists.
I agree with the notion that art should never be censored. Sometimes it’s dark and problematic and fucked up but it’s art. However where does the responsibility lie? With artists to not create problematic art? For labels to not promote/release it? For fans to not consume it?
And where does that line go of what is problematic? Who decides?
It’s all an incredibly complex ethical debate that there is NO right or wrong answer to.

 

I think a good example would be someone like The Weeknd who makes deeply misogynistic music, personally listening to a lot of his music makes me uncomfortable but I also know he's a lot of people's here's fave and I don't necessarily fault them for that

 

For me there is a definite line between consumption and defending/actively promoting problematic artists.

It's my simple way of navigating this messy, messy world and is probably not 100% the best way of engaging art, but its the simplest.

 

I try to think how the victim would feel. Like how would a victim feel seeing all these major artists paling around with their abuser? How would they feel seeing them accept a major award? How would they feel hearing someone blasting their music in the car or seeing them basically deified when they die? But it gets complicated because not all survivors feel the same way or see the situation the same, and especially complicated when the abuser is outed against their wishes. I try to imagine how I would feel if my ex was praised and protected and if listeners insisted on consuming their work despite what happened. I think I get frustrated because some people kinda pull the no ethical consumption under capitalism mantra to justify a lot of irresponsible choices, when I would be more understanding if they were just honest like yeah this artist did a sucky thing but I'm still a fan so how do I reconcile this and try to be a self aware and responsible consumer as much as I can?

 

Idk about anyone else but I don't address comments about artists directly at any users unless someone comes at me first. If I go into a thread and post something awareness-related, I just leave a general comment and a link or two and that's it. If I then get quoted for my general statement not directed at any specific users and that person wants to tell me I'm wrong for doing that, oh well, I honestly don't care if they feel bad about it. Again, I can't speak for anyone else but I don't directly attack users for listening to any artist. I always say people can do whatever they want in private, I'm not judging anyone for what they listen to on their own time. Everyone has their reasons for still listening to "X artist that's abusive or problematic." That's on them.

 

Thank you very much Jason for posting this I really appreciate it.

I just got back from a nice dinner with my gf and people were telling me to check chorus so I did and it was certainly unexpected to see my name dragged through the mud like that. Glad you confirmed that it wasn’t me when I wasn’t around to be able to say it myself. It has more gravitas coming from you so thank you again.

 

Tbh it's probably not my business to tell grown ppl how to hash out their issues but I'm nosy so OH WELL. I'll just say that the only time I rly got my feelings hurt on AP was when someone once went into a thread to complain about something I had said in another thread but without using my name. A vintage subtweet basically lol. And tbh they were even right, but the way it was brought about made it feel like a personal thing and not constructive like if they had PM'd me or quoted my post in question and had a conversation with me. Someone else mentioned it already but I think we're all trying to do the right thing and all deserve respect and decent communication. I'm not saying that to police anyone's feelings but I guess I would hope if someone had an issue with me they'd feel comfortable coming to me or vice versa. I think the only way to create a caring community is to give each other grace and remember that we have spent our whole lives learning and being socialized with these harmful things and it takes our whole lives to undo it and we're all trying to navigate the difficult terrain together. Cheers y'all

 

I’m sure you’ll get your apologies soon, bud

 

There has been bullying on this website, I’ve seen it on this website (and off). I’ve done my best to put a stop to it or open dialog and try and contain it when I can, but it has happened. I’ve heard from people, involved and not, and seen the posts and messages and tried stop it from getting worse. I’ve probably crossed the line myself a few times as well over the past few years. But to say it’s not happening, I just can’t get behind.

Edit: hmm, post was deleted. I’ll leave this here anyway.

 

RT!

 

I deleted my post so I can speak more clearly tomorrow, but the people on here being called into question do not bully. They aim to educate if they are privy to information and may have strong opinions, but they do not ever bully. Not sure who you're talking about but it's not the people that I am.

 

We are either talking about different instances or have different definitions of the word bully. But I’ve seen it. So have many others. This isn’t some fiction; it has happened.

(Anyway, I’m going back to my movie now. Everyone try and get some sleep and be kind to yourself/others for a bit.)

 

The problem lies in the fact that a lot of users feel differently, so maybe it’s time to think about how we address issues. We need to remember we are all on the same team here, often times there feels like a real divide. I think a lot of these “aim to educate statements” could be done in private or with a more respectful tone. But that’s just me.

 

Conversations devolve into namecalling frequently, what else would you call that besides bullying tbh? Especially when those namecalling comments are often liked by others.
I’m not even thinking of anyone specifically, I’m just saying that’s I’ve seen it. Often.
I am trying not to tone police but just in general I feel like it’s more safe and productive to have discussions devoid of those things.

 

Deep down what we all want is a respecful and caring community. I know that's what i want and I hope that we can all work together to achieve that.

 

Has Killer Mike being in that weird pro gun NRA video been brought up in here?

 

Yeah and in the rtj thread as well

 

Ah, will have to go check that out, thanks!

 

Some weird talk in here about hip hop music. I think it's a bit naive to think that the artists (especially at a Chance/Ye level) do not have control of the artists they feature on songs. Look at how many people most of us respect came out in support of XXX, even in the last few months. Lot of problematic promoting shit going down on twitter all the time, and I see it the same way I see bands still supporting JJR and Harry and any abuser. It sucks and should be talked about.

I've spent like my entire existence on this site attempting to defend and legitimize hip hop, but I can still question or criticize aspects of it when it becomes problematic. I'm seeing a lot of jumping through hoops in here to defend shit that shouldn't really be defended.

 

i don't think anyone is using this to DEFEND kanye or other artists, but to say that this situation is different than in like punk/DIY music. like, should we "cancel" any rapper who uses the word "bitch" to talk about a woman or features kodak black on a song the same way as we would if it was a punk scene equivalent? i don't think so, because it's a whole industry problem and needs to be worked on in all levels. i don't think this excuses the behavior and absolutely should be spoken about and discussed and artists should be held accountable but i think we need to look at this from a different angle.

 

Hey I’m big enough to admit when I’m wrong. Sorry for jumping to conclusions.

 

I absolutely look down upon any artist who works with Kodak/Chris Brown/XXX/69 etc. There's no excuse for it today. Artists blow up through word of mouth. IG/Twitter presence and cosigns. Thugger talking about how much he loves XXX just validates so many people's opinion that what he did wasn't that bad or that they shouldn't care. It's hypocritical of me to not be in every Young Thug or Kanye thread saying fuck him the same way I do for bands like State Champs or Four Year Strong. I don't really believe there is that big of a difference.

The pop punk scene is certainly on a much smaller scale than hip hop. If someone like J. Cole or Kendrick came out and was like "XXX is abusive trash don't support him" I don't think that'd make as much of a wave as Soupy coming out and saying "JJR defended a rapist and should no longer be allowed in the scene". That doesn't mean that I'm not disappointed in all of the hip hop artists cosigning or remaining silent about the fact that a number of popular artists in the genre right now are abusers.

I know that all of the amazing people who continue to speak out on this site (@Kiana @Anna Acosta @kaylasananjou and others continuously have the best things to say on the matter and more people should listen to them instead of my dumb ass) about the horrible shit going down in the scene are ruffling feathers. Jason has said multiple times that bands and labels and sponsors cut ties with AP after the whole Boycott Pure Noise thing went down. Abusers remain in the scene, but at least waves were created. Perhaps that's why I, and others, are more willing to be very vocal about taking down abusers in this scene. We can witness changes being made. PWR BTTM disappeared. Sorority Noise dropped off their tour etc. There are obviously cases of people still being powerful and active within the scene even after being outed as abusers, but I feel like our voices are heard more and are more effective than me shouting "Fuck Kanye" in every thread. That may be hypocritical and I don't necessarily feel good about it, but that's where I'm at.

You can get into the racial dynamic of the language utilized within the hip hop culture re: misogyny and violence against women, but the bottom line is that it still isn't right. A person has every right to call me out for listening to hip hop while at the same time speaking out against pop punk bands who have shitty lyrics about women. It's not a good look for a bunch of white dudes to shrug off those kinds of lyrics simply because we cannot speak on the black experience and the effects of systemic oppression on how women are spoken about. You can acknowledge that the music is fucked up across the board while still taking into consideration power dynamics. The comparisons between hip hop and pop punk might not line up at all, but the language being used is still harmful and should be talked about.

I don't believe anyone is saying "cancel" artists who have problematic lyrics, but I also do not fault anyone who has moved away from or continues to speak out about certain artists/genres when they recognize how harmful some of the songs are.

That's rambling and might not make sense but yeah.

 

And I'll also add that it's super gross that this entire discussion appears to come about from hurt feelings over some nonsense rather than genuine care for discussing problematic artists in music. I mean, it got us thinking about Ye and stuff, but that certainly didn't come from a place of good intentions and we all need to be better about not attempting to leverage "wokeness" as a way to get back at other people/make yourself look better. That's not what this thread is about.