Accountability in Entertainment • Page 128

he watched the morning show and thought, without self-awareness, "hey this steve carrell character has a point"

 

Is it just me or does #cancelculture seem like it's in overdrive right now? I'm not saying there aren't people out there that shouldn't be cancelled, but it seems like people just want people to hate and spend a lot of their time during the pandemic trying to spread anger and controversy.

They're trying to cancel Hillary Duff for being a child sex trafficker or something and Jimmy Fallon for doing blackface. The Jimmy Fallon one should certainly be addressed as there's documented proof, but how much of this is just people online spouting gibberish on Twitter?

 

We have a choice between the lesser of two rapists for president of the country so I’m pretty sure if anything accountability still has a long way to go. You can’t equate internet conspiracy theories with actual problematic and toxic behavior.

 

I think it’s why accountability is such a hard term for people to grasp though

like someone can be “cancelled” within leftist/woke/progressive/whatever circles but still be doing fine in their life/career
I think that’s most frequently what we see

it’s hard to think someone’s been held accountable when there are tons of people allowing them off the hook, but sadly that will literally always be the case. The most problematic fucked up people you can think of still have a die hard fan base who will support them. and that’s a pretty hard thought to reconcile with.

 

I think people are just bored and Twitter does that stuff in jest or in a tongue in cheek way most of the time

The Hilary one was a right wing conspiracy theory but I think people just find Jimmy Fallon annoying

 

“Cancel Culture” doesn’t exist. It’s a phrase that minimizes the good work people are doing to try and hold powerful people accountable for their actions by making those people out to be hysterical reactionaries “out to get” poor innocent celebrities (often popular white males) for Twitter clout.

Sure there are people out there who may take things too far in some cases, but on the whole that isn’t the case.

 

The only thing I’ve pondered about this is the endgame, as in are people allowed to apologize and work to atone for what they did or are they just damned forever?

 

I know the term cancel culture is definitely used that way and has been used to undermine people etc. that’s definitely true.
it’s also true that, like I pointed out, people who are “cancelled” rarely see their actual career cancelled etc
But it’s also true that we are in a very specific time right now that does repeatedly try to “cancel” people- with joy. Any hashtags from most incidents will tell you that.

I personally feel that we need to discuss all of it. Any time you mention “cancel culture” I feel like people assume you’re doing it in a bad-faith way (like in the way Anthony described)
But like there’s so much going on, “cancel culture” is clearly a real phenomenon happening in the sense that we exist in a culture that uses the language of “canceling” people- not holding them accountable
Like Twitter will “cancel” people for things that are sometimes way over the top and not about accountability
Or like the case of Hilary duff, people rushing to cancel over really big stretch of truths (sincerely hope I don’t have to eat my words about that one)
Anyway, I kind of believe those kind of “over reactions” in turn demean all attempts to hold people accountable.
Because just demanding them to be cancelled a) doesn’t work so b) isn’t actually holding them accountable.
We need to actually figure out a way to hold people accountable (celebrities specifically) in a way that doesn’t allow them to shrug it off and retreat to their supportive fans who don’t care (ie lana)

Idk that there is a point to all of that sorry. Just have a lot of thoughts about the notion of cancel culture. I just hate that the phrase is associated with right wing dismissive thinking when it’s a cultural behavior that deserves discussion

 

The problem is most apologies are hollow or are " sorry for offending you "
Genuine accountability is rare and always accepted

 

Cancel culture absolutely exists. It's a byproduct of a much needed movement and its far larger than you're making it out to be. But the people who take part in cancel culture are often different from the people who are holding powerful celebrities accountable. The former often make it even more difficult for the latter to be taken seriously. These people, whether knowingly or unknowingly, are making a mockery out of the people who actually give a shit. Instead of dismissing cancel culture, I think it's best we acknowledge the very real detrimental effects it has on a movement that was born out of a need for victims to be heard and for toxic environments to be purged.

 

Yes! Thanks for saying what I said except better!

 

i think the point that he's making is that "cancel culture" is used as some kind of boogeyman term for people trying to "cancel" celebs for just about anything. that doesn't happen lol. the amount of people actually cancelled, for legitimate reasons, is pretty minuscule. woody Allen is still putting out books, Louis ck is still releasing specials and touring. so making "cancelling" out to be some sort of large cultural thing that is happening too much to anyone for anything is, like, fundamentally fake. there are maybe two handfuls worth of people that have been full on cancelled. it is much more an exception than the rule and acting like it's some widespread cultural movement is disingenuous at best.

 

My apologies. I think your post was sufficient. I didn't read it until after I posted mine.

It's not about whether people actually get canceled by cancel culture. It's that cancel culture absolutely affects the perception of a very real and honest movement that has been needed for longer than it's been around.

 

oh don’t apologize like I said I think you worded what I was going for better than I did.

and agreed it’s not about the actual results because as I already acknowledged no there typically ISNT career ending or tangible effects of cancellation
But just the fact that we’re all casually using the term cancellation and know what it means is literally the evidence that we live in a time where cancel culture exists and idk how else to plainly state that.


I want to be able to have a conversation about the term and the culture and the effects with people who should frankly know by now my stance on these things, so that there is no confusion that I’m some ignorant person coming in here whining about cancel culture with a bad faith argument.

 

I think one of the frustrating things about this thing that certain people call "cancel culture" is that, because it's a movement to create genuine, situationally appropriate accountability (for the sake of removing wicked people from power, educating uninformed & misinformed people, & protecting vulnerable people), a movement fighting uphill amidst all sorts of abuse & bad faith arguments & attempts to divert responsibility... It can be tricky to have nuanced, self-critical conversations.

But, humanity being what it is, no concept is righteous, pure, or important enough to be immune to mistakes, fringe grey areas, etc.

Now, in my personal experience (which I don't wanna treat as overly representative), generally this isn't that hard to navigate. Generally, barring outside factors, people in good faith can recognize others who are good faith, & when outside factors do throw things off, it can be worked out. Amongst people w/ the right attitude, grace & nuance isn't that rare.

Still, not everyone is fully sincere. And, this applies to... *shudder* ..."both sides," though I cannot emphasize enough how much this doesn't mean "both sides" are equal, my gosh, lol. But, yeah, you get all sorts of misunderstanding, misapplications, bad faith, etc. And, even when careful, things can be taken from sincere people by insincere people the wrong way. I myself have shared nuanced observations about "cancel culture" that've gotten likes where, I look at who liked it & think, "shit, this person is probably using this good faith critique as a license for bad faith dismissal."

(Which, if you're nerdy, you can go down all sorts of rabbit trails of how communication theory stuff applies to this, lol.)

And, all of this is before even getting to how some of the people in these conversations are, y'know, actual people who have been abused by the systems & culture that we try to hold accountable, which brings all sorts of strong, righteous emotions into the mix.

It can be tricky, amidst all of this, to remain good at self-reflection. But, if the actual goal truly is accountability, then self-accountability is still part of it (in a way that doesn't create a false dichotomy version of "both sides" that ignores power structures, my gosh, lol).

 

The weird thing about the Jimmy Fallon situation is that he should be pretty low on the people to blame for that. Saturday Night Live features young comedians trying to make a name for themselves; they have very little control over the material. This wasn't Tonight Show with a theme park ride Jimmy Fallon, this was a guy in his twenties. If he had said no, someone else would just do it. The blame should be on the writers, Lorne Michaels, and NBC.

 

My point was that "Cancel Culture" isn't going too far because "Cancel Culture", the phrase, has chiefly been employed for the purpose of disparaging efforts at accountability and making those who seek it out to be the ones in the wrong.

People take things too far on Twitter all the time, like amplifying conspiracy theories or dredging up old actions or statements for which a given person has already been held accountable and apologized/owned responsibility (i.e. what happened to James Gunn). But that isn't "cancel culture", it's just people taking things too far on social media. Framing it in that way, in my opinion, lumps all of those people in with the people actually trying to do the right thing.

Basically, people who hijack the language of accountability and social justice for their own ends, whether it's a bad faith attack or just for laughs/to be a dick, are not representative of any movement other than themselves, nor are their actions the result of the good work people have been trying to do to hold powerful people to account for their crimes, either directly or indirectly.

 

Yes the term cancel culture HAS been used in that way but I think it’s not fair to say that’s the only purpose the phrase serves
If there is a better phrase to describe what we literally are all on the same page about now, then I would gladly switch up the language. but based on current communication trends idk why we are acting like it doesn’t refer to a cultural moment that is specific to ~2016>

“that isn’t cancel culture and framing it that way...” but it literally IS cancel culture and it’s not being framed by us its that when the literal hashtags to these movements are #CancelBob and #BobisOVERparty

definitely don’t think those people’s actions are “because” of the movement of accountability but to act like they aren’t representative....I reject that.
it’s like when people say “this Christian hate group isn’t actually Christian bc they’re not even really following the Bible!”
Like, are they weaponizing the Bible? Are they calling themselves Christians? Then you can’t say they aren’t representative. They are. These people, Twitter, everyone is creating a culture. The easiest umbrella term to describe this is cancel culture.

we can be mad that it exists. We can be mad that people are hijacking it for bad faith reasons. We can be pissed that there are more critics to the movement than actual accountability-holders.
but in my opinion what we should not do is be adamant that it doesn’t exist.

consequences of cancel culture don’t exist. But the culture itself very much does and we aren’t doing ourselves any favors by pretending it doesn’t.

 

The fact that cancel culture negatively affects the perception of an honest movement means it's already gone too far. The people they "cancel" aren't affected, but the people trying to hold others in powerful positions accountable? They are.

How you jumped from us clearly making the distinction between cancel culture and the me too movement to us lumping both of them in the same group, I'm not entirely sure. But that's a hell of a jump regardless.

 

ALSO making things a thousand times more difficult is the disconnect between the internet and IRL

it’s easy to be like well that’s just Twitter it doesn’t matter
But there are millions of people on Twitter and it’s hugely culturally impactful so that’s not true
But then at the same time it IS kinda true?
like when I went to my friends backyard birthday the other day doja cat came on and I was like oh yeah everyone’s p mad at Doja right now huh? And no one knew what I was talking about. Obviously it was a very small group lol but my point being that even things that seem huge on the internet can be completely unknown by a huge slice of society

 

right but it’s such a minor/small amount of cases than what people who use a phrase like “cancel culture,” which by definition implies a cultural/large spread thing, want you to believe that it is.

there is no large cultural movement for “cancelling” people. that does not exist.

 

I don’t wish to go back and forth especially when I’m sure it’s pointless as I’m p certain you have me blocked
But I disagree wholly with this. The examples I already gave of millions of trending tweets having the words “cancel this person” in them is absolutely indicative of a culture.

we can go back and forth about whether a culture exists or not but we literally can’t move on to the next portion of discussion and critiquing the culture if people can’t even get on the same page of acknowledging it’s existence.

 

I agree and hopefully that can change.

 

Like I understand the argument being made. It’s just that it belongs directed at people who are actively trying to have bad faith arguments or dismiss things
None of which I am trying to do, at all. people like me/us should be able to have discussions about a touchy, nuanced subject while using a term that is culturally understood and relevant without it being assumed that that person is being dismissive