30 Seconds To Mars Band • Page 23

you are the king of needing to look good online for others

according to your friend above there's been accusations and whispers about cam for a very long time

thank you for writing off the band now good job you are clean

 

i don't even know who dylan is

 

First of all, @cwhit doesn't have friends.

Second. What's your point here? I'm trying to find the purpose of your post. You called me and my friend Joe out in bad faith to try and put us in some sort of "gotcha" situation because you were able to find posts of ours that stated we were listening to a band prior to accusations coming out. Are you going to go through the Brand New thread while you're at it and then hit up Pinegrove next? You understand the point of what Joe and I were getting across is the continued support and engagement of art of artists who are abusers, right? Like, neither of us are saying that if you listened to a band in the past and then it later comes out that they were an abuser that we think you're a shit ass person, right? Or are you so far removed from either your apparent love for 30STM or some sort of vendetta against those trying to do their best to not support abusers that you don't understand this point?

 

I still think the idea of needing to "call out," especially harshly, people that have decided for one way or another to consume art ... unhelpful regardless of who is doing it. I've yet to see an example where I think someone's being a good ally or helpful when they take on this task. The underlying argument of "look, you're a hypocrite" is very underwhelming.

 

dgibson15’s Music Profile | Last.fm

here's my last.fm, knock yourself out

 

whoops, now we've gone from "gotcha" territory into plain trolling

 

wtf you still use lastfm? that's an issue right there!

 

Ah, so you are just a pro-abuser troll trying to make some weird point about it being ok to listen to abusers' music and nobody should be a meanie head to you about it. Thanks for letting us know to engage with this inanity no further, at least.

 

The account was banned, you guys don't have to keep responding to it.

 

I've spent way too much time in a 30 Seconds to Mars thread the past week. However, for the record, I know quite a few people on this list that have done some pretty awful things. Which, brings me back to my original point from a few days ago about what people know, and don't know, and the art we consume and how all of this black and white talk in regard to these subjects is mostly unhelpful and in some case I think actively harmful to the entire cause. All the arguments become "well you listen to XYZ" and arguments about teams and who's being an ally right or better ... instead of there being any meaningful discussion or learning or healing.

 

Damn this became a big mess

 

lol jesus

 

I think we're saying, essentially the same thing. The only point I've been trying to make is that I find it problematic that some people immediately resort to name calling and shaming whenever a simple question or discerning opinion is expressed.

The way the conversation SHOULD go is "I can understand how you might be asking that question. However, I feel that it is in all of our best interests to not support those bands/acts that have been identified as abusers by multiple people." To which someone else might say "I get it but have you also considered [x,y,z]." Instead it plays out like the below:

PERSON A: [band member] is a known predator/abused based on [link]. You're all fuckfaces if you support them.
PERSON B: Hmmm, hadn't heard of that info, that's disappointing. Do you have any additional sources and/or information? What source is this coming from?
PERSON A: Fuck you for not supporting victims!

 

theres usually really good discussions going on, none of us are on this "black and white" mentality, we all know theres a lot of nuance to these things and we all know that many us of, i dare say all of us, have a "problematic fav".

but what exactly do we do from there? where do we go now? like, we can all sit in here and go "but jared leto!" "yeah but what about pete wentz!" "yeah well you have a cure avatar!" "dont you listen to brand new still?" but thats obviously not going to get us anywhere. if the Swans thread were to get bumped right now wouldnt it be worthwhile to remind everyone what Gira has been accused of? sure, but where do we go from there? im not sure where exactly these conversations go that ends in a healthy "well yeah, youre right. now lets move forward from here and begin healing". what does that really mean though? i dont think anyone should try and stir the pot but it seems like this conversation is moving towards "well we all have an artist we love that has done awful things so you have no room to talk!" and im not sure where else to go from here. of course victims are far more important than any of us listeners so id love to hear thoughts from anyone who has been a victim if theyre comfortable, plus the many users who are far smarter than i am when it comes to these situations.

this thread got real hostile the other day, from more than just one party, so hopefully this is a better day for a more civil discussion

 

I hear you. I think that's what we all, collectively, are working through a society as a result of #metoo. There likely will be an over-corrective approach for a while but, eventually, we'll need to decide in some way what the process will be and whether we'll allow for rehabilitation and forgiveness or if these people will just need to live in shame for the rest of their existence.

On a lighter note, listed to this record once and enjoyed it. There's not any element of actual emotion in it, just total product but an enjoyable one.

 

I think that for a while there has been a very good dialogue about finding the line for each and every person re: what happens when an artist is accused. I think that continuing to actively, positively promote or support or discuss said artist is wrong, specifically when many people might not be aware of the situation. This thread should be disrupted and fans should be reminded of accusations against Leto.

At the same time, I really don't get behind telling people to fuck off or that they should admit shame or whatever for continuing to privately listen to art that helped them through difficult situations/is used as a coping mechanism. People who were fans of/supported an artist prior to any knowledge of abuse should not be shamed for being fans of that band, and that appears to be what happened in here.

 

whoa whoa no no no no thats not at all where im going with what im saying and im hoping im just reading what you typed wrong

 

I agree with this, but it's almost contradictory because if a person really is privately listening to an abuser artist that helped them through difficult situations, then nobody would be able to say anything to that person for publicly supporting that artist because nobody would know.

 

I'm speaking in broader terms. There has been an exhaustive list of very serious allegations against people in the entertainment industry in the last year (and rightfully so!). Eventually, we're going to all need to determine what the course of action is and what reparations need to be made.

 

I mean, a lot of discussion that came up post the Brand New situation was about people being conflicted as to how to interact with art that they felt "saved their lives", so to speak, and many people resigned themselves to listening to songs in private while no longer supporting the band. I'm unsure of the previous interactions with the users in here who brought up BN

 

I agree, that's not great at all, as I said, I think there's a lack of empathy or understanding that, by and large, most people on these forums aren't trying to be awful or bad people. There are exceptions of course. However, far too often I've seen it become about showing who's the most "woke" instead of actually wanting to discuss/educate/and struggle together over some difficult topics. The rigid radicalism and accusations of people 'only pretending to care' about topics, or trying to gotcha/call people hypocrites, is just so very unhelpful to anyone or anything.

 

Right, and what I'm saying is what I've personally always tried to say: if someone wants to privately listen to an artist that meant a lot to them but has been outed as an abuser, that's their prerogative. People have to make their own decisions about their personal lines. Keyword: personal. But once that private listening crosses over into public support, whether by wearing a t-shirt or buying a record or posting on a forum, that's something that should be addressed. Not with personal attacks or shaming, I agree, but by educating that person as to why public displays of support for someone like Jesse Lacey or Jared Leto, for example, can be problematic in their own right. People can privately listen to what they want, but vocalizing it publicly is not the same thing as still having songs from Science Fiction in your iPhone playlists.

 

Last.fm is historical, which I'm sure you know, so if there are artists on there that are abusers or problematic, i could have listened to them before I knew about it but haven't removed the scrobble history yet. I only recently got around to removing brand new and pinegrove's scrobbles, I don't have an excuse as to why it took so long, but it did. my line is no continued direct support and to the best of my ability indirect support of abusers and problematic people. by all means let me know which artists I shouldn't be listening to.

 

You’re missing my point here. Of course I know what last.fm is, that’s why what I am talking about is not in relation to that. You’re going to keep supporting awful people no matter what you do, it’s going to happen. Your line is not tenable as stated because you are going to give money to monsters without even knowing it ... while others know it. I’ve talked to women abused by people in your top 20. This idea that you can escape that is virtually impossible, which is why I think the discussion about how to handle art by bad people and the personal portions of it are so much more difficult than it was presented. Because when someone says “I don’t do this and I don’t wanna even talk to or be around people that do” ... it’s just not true. The intention simply can’t ever match up to reality, and that’s why I think shutting down a conversation of people talking about how they deal with the reality that art the consume is made by bad people to be unhelpful. Because it’s not a simple heuristic, we have to be willing to talk about what we don’t know and our own hypocrisy and the truth that every day we support abusive people in various ways. Shaming those that admit to that and/or just deleting after the fact doesn’t get to the core of the issue and how one interacts and reacts to art, or consumes anything, with these ethical questions.