30 Seconds To Mars Band • Page 19

Planning on it. But before I do... do you REALLY think this is a worthwhile battle that’s worth alienating people over? All of us here have stated repeatedly that we support victims. None of us are believing the abuser is innocent, and we’ve all clarified that stance repeatedly in the face of your accusation that... what exactly? We’re all secretly abuser sympathizers despite repeatedly condemning that exact behavior? We’re shitty people for listening to some songs?

Some of you on here keep wanting to expand the window of what constitutes not just a bad, but a *morally unacceptable* viewpoint. There can be reasonable disagreements without one side having to be a “piece of shit”, an “abuse sympathizer”, or whatever else. Why not focus your anger on everyone out there who still doesn’t even acknowledge #MeToo and these issues are important, instead of pointless infighting with people who are all largely on the same page?

 

You are absolutely right.

 

Total mob mentality on here now.

 

100% agree.

Also random note, but is your avatar Milo Greene? That first album (Autumn Tree in particular) holds a special place in my heart!

 

everyone's just gonna ignore the perfectly reasonable discussion I just had in this thread then

 

lack of hard lines is why xxxtentacion sold 130k week 1 and plenty of abusers are still appearing in films so

 

DUDE YES to both of those. Autumn Tree is my fave too

 

Wow this thread has gone south quick. Personally attacking forum members just sucks.

 

#FreeMike #FreeBrenden

 

Are you justifying your own lack of "a hard line" in multiple cases, or just trying to be a dick to others here? This doesn't feel remotely helpful.

 

Did you read @beachdude42 post at all dude? He wasnt talking about financially supporting whatsoever which is completely different

 

i'm not calling shots at anyone specifically at all. i'm just saying, and i'm frustrated because i have already seen a 6ix9ine show get announced today, that i feel people give too much leeway, even when it comes to talking about artists at all. i wish we could just eternal sunshine of the spotless mind out abusive artists. really not directing my post in anyone in particular at all, just the general conversation

 

How about bands that sign with labels that they know, continually, enable abusive behavior from other artists? This is the entire reason people talk about having varying degrees of what they can support or not support. Financially supporting a studio that keeps working with shitty people is not that much different than a record label that keeps working with them is not that much different than a band on that label is a little different than a band choosing to actively sign with that label.

What you are comfortable with is different than me is different than someone else. This throwing everyone under one umbrella and implying that not having a "hard line" means you could basically support something like xxxtentacion, is just pure fallacy.

 

not sure if calling someone a dick is the right response in this situation either.

I think something that's becoming an issue is the "draw your own line" reasoning being used as a crux to justify listening to certain artists, I think we're all guilty of that. Theres a tactful way to go about these things, sure, but I get being frustrated at what can appear to be sweeping these things under the rug. We know Jared Leto has at the very least been accused by quite a few women of varying ages of sexually assaulting them but I guess not financially supporting him and listening in private are good ways to still be an ally in these situations.

Seems like things got kinda hostile on both sides here but these things tend to elicit strong emotions, my sister and one of my cousins have been sexually assaulted so a lot of times it's a no tolereance gut reaction from me.

 

How about bands that sign with labels that they know, continually, enable abusive behavior from other artists? This is the entire reason people talk about having varying degrees of what they can support or not support. Financially supporting a studio that keeps working with shitty people is not that much different than a record label that keeps working with them is not that much different than a band on that label is a little different than a band choosing to actively sign with that label.

 

Anyone trying to paint this all as black and white isn't being honest with themselves about what they still support on a daily basis. It's not black and white and there's hundreds of variables at play.

 

It should be black and white when a musician is outed as an abuser. Continuing to listen to them will always be wild to me and something I truly will not understand. It's actively going out of your way and taking your time to hear art they created, when there are so many others out there that aren't abusive that could use the platform

 

why did you take out the context of my post and then copy and paste something you already posted on this page? isnt this kind of losing the plot here? we're not talking about the band but Jared Leto, who isnt a label or a studio, but a person with actual allegations against him?

i get what youre getting at here, there are a lot of labels that will sweep stuff under the rug and sign artists that they shouldnt. Hell, Neck Deep and Moose Blood need to be dropped from Hopeless yesterday but that doesnt somehow make it invalid to discuss the allegations on Jared Leto in this thread.

 

Ok, to take that position you're now discussing the levels of grey within what "outed as an abuser" means and what is abuse for someone versus someone else. Robert Smith of The Cure was reported to be quite violent in Lol Tolhurst's biography, is that enough to write them completely off? What about The Beatles before you were born? What about whispers around an artist vs an actual accusation? What about enabling of abusive behavior by a band or their actions? What about anonymous accusations? There are so many factors at play that every single person has to make a decision about when looking at something like this I do not think it's nearly as easy described.

 

Because it's part of the larger conversation about "no tolerance" and the culture of abuse. It's a whole lot easier for some to say "fuck Jared Leto" or fuck this studio for putting him in a movie and those that work with him and not so easy to say "fuck The Wonder Years" for signing to a label that actively enables abusers. Because everyone has a different line for what they are willing to accept. This isn't losing the plot at all, it's specifically what we're talking about: everyone having a different way of looking at and handling different forms of information they know about different people. You have a different line than someone else.

But I never said it made it invalid to discuss allegations of Jared Leto, not even close to that -- my comments are relating to the discussion of "hard lines" and the current conversation around people having varying degrees of dealing with various accusations and actions.

 

again with this huh

i mean yeah, everyone has a different line to draw and that's all well and good but its still worth discussing these things, especially when theres actual concrete allegations against a band member right? like, i dont know why anyone would continue to listen to this band with these allegations but thats not my place to say and i dont really think less of anyone that would continue to listen i suppose. this "whataboutism" thing is kind of taking away from the conversation though, like yeah we can all sit here and list terrible things artists we love have done but it wouldnt justify anything. this thread escalated really quickly in a poor way but its something that shouldnt be ignored or swept aside either.

i know you didnt say it was invalid, which is why i didnt say you, but saying "well what about x" isnt really a defense or a justification.

i saw "hard lines" as "hard times" and now ive got that song stuck in my head

 

But the entire conversation started with talking about what is or isn't a "concrete" allegation and the various ways people look at allegations and why some see it differently than others. This is the conversation that started this entire thing. Do you consider any anonymous allegation concrete? From any source? From the NYT? To some an anonymous allegation on a website that hasn't been vetted doesn't carry the same weight as actively choosing to participate and make money for known abusive enablers. Or from a well known source. And "concrete" is a different level from an accusation. A variation of "trust but verify" (which I don't love as phrase because of a shitty President) is a well known theme in restorative justice circles for this reason. (How one talks about what they think carries weight, and why, is also important.) So, while you say you don't understand why someone could listen to this band with these allegations, others say they don't understand how someone could financially support a record label that enables abusers. Because people have different ways of looking at different scenarios and denying that to declare one way is the only way I think is shortsighted and not being honest.

This isn't "whataboutism" -- the entire conversation is about looking at the terrible things artists we love have done and that there's not a black and white "guide" that every single person should or could follow. The entire point here is to see the various forms abusive behavior can take and why person A may decide one thing while person B decides another even while person B is supporting/doing something that they would maybe say they are against.

Yes it is because the entire conversation is about different lines of acceptance/rejection of different artists. How someone gets there depending on different scenarios is the conversation.

 

I'm learning a lot here
I don't have much to say but
I'll keep listening

#haikuhumpday

 

By and large I think this community could benefit from knowing we're all, effectively, trying to be on the same team here and be a community. When trolls with barely any posts show up, or someone says something way out of line, there's a time and place for hostility, but how I've seen it deployed lately I think is not healthy. Too much feels like trying to one up someone else and not in good faith. Too many people trying to tear others down instead of actually having a conversation if they so wish.

 

When someone says they're listening to or consuming art made by a known abuser, they should get called out. If they try and defend their direct support (continuing to engage with art an abuser made is direct support. support doesn't have to be monetary), then they should get torn down. A person who has to make excuses or justify their direct support of an abuser is not on my "team." I'm sorry if that's a purist or snobby or whatever thing to say, especially since I'm seeing friends of mine on here liking jason's post, but it's how i feel. you are not on my team if you continue to engage with art made by abusers. that doesn't do anything to root out the rampant problems of abuse we have in our scene or throughout the industry.

There's a difference between directly supporting an abuser and indirectly through several degrees of separation supporting an abuser. Neither is okay, but there is a tangible difference between buying a Moose Blood album/going to their shows and preordering the wonder years album where a portion of those funds go to Hopeless Records who signed Moose Blood six years after they signed the wonder years. To try and say those two levels of direct and indirect support are comparable and somehow a counterpoint to ken's points is purposefully dishonest at best.

I can control my direct support of moose blood or jared leto by choosing not to listen to, stream, or buy their art, merch, or tickets. That should be the "line" we are talking about. To the best of our ability are we avoiding directly supporting abusers? The answer should be yes. That's the line. If you're not avoiding supporting abusers to the best of your ability, you aren't doing a good job and you need to do better. Why even advertise that publicly? I mean, I get it if those songs or that album got you through times and may be the reason why you are here, but like jake said, recognize that is still a privileged position to have and at the very least keep it to yourself.

jared leto, or any abuser, doesn't deserve to have this conversation happening about them and what they've done. they only benefit from any sort of doubt or "gray area" of support from those participating or observing this conversation. someone in here is agreeing that there is a "gray area" of direct support for abusers and will go stream pinegrove's album and give money to evan. someone is going to listen to science fiction and let jesse's art continue on in their library. that to me, is not good.

The point about "concrete" allegations is bordering on abuser enabling and victim blaming so I'm just going to reiterate "believe the victims unless proven otherwise." I mean the allegations against brand new were in a front bottoms tour announcement comments section on facebook initially and then on brians personal facebook post. What matters is that someone came forward and there is an allegation. Unless it's proven otherwise, then no one needs to be supporting that person in any manner.

Like jake and deathco and joe and others have said, there are so many more better people out there who deserve our time and attention and support, so to spend time and attention and support defending and excusing your engagement with art made by abusers is absurd, problematic, and damaging.

playing devil's advocate, benefit-of-the-doubt-ing, saying there are "gray areas," etc in a conversation on jared leto is to his benefit and is not a good thing to do imo